This hobby is driving me to drink . . .

[zstar5000]

I'll keep this as short as possible, and TIA for your help/advice/constructive criticism.

I've done about 12 all grain batches over the past year. My problem is with overall efficiency, and it's getting to the point where it's taking some of the joy out of brewing.

I use iHomebrew on my iPad for recipes, calculations, etc. Over those 12 batches my average efficiency is less than 60%.

My mash tun is a 40 qt rectangular cooler with 16" SS braid toilet line and ball valve. My standard practice is to mash at 154 degrees with 1.25 qt/lb. Today, which was an efficiency disaster, I tried a thinner mash at 1.40.

What I typically do is pump the mash water into the mash tun, stir, close the lid at 152-154 degrees, and then stir occasionally over the next 60 minutes. Then, using the calculations from the software, I heat up my sparge water to approx. 190 degrees in order to hit 170 when I batch sparge, introduce that to my mash, stir, and let sit for 10-20 mins. I then slowly drain the wort to my kettle; it takes about 45 mins to get 6.5 gals.

Today I tried draining my wort after the mash, adding a few more gallons, heating that to 175, pumping that back into my tun, stir, sit, and drain 6.5 gal in about 35 mins. What was crazy today is that my preboil gravity was .1064 (or 21.7 ppg, with a 19.5 lb grain bill!), and my OG, on a 5 gal batch, only came in at 1.066. That seems nearly impossible to me, so I think I must have screwed up my preboil reading.

Yesterday I did something closer to my regular method and ended up with a preboil of 18.7 ppg. Ugh.

Anyways, part of my problem is I can't do a high gravity beer because I need so much freakin' grain to account for my crap efficiency that I run out of room in my mash tun. So this efficiency issue is a problem both because I'm a bit of perfectionist, and also from the pragmatic side of things.

Possible issues:

1. My mash tun. Any reason why my mash set-up could contribute to poor efficiency?

2. My method. I can't for the life of me see where anything I'm doing, either my typical method or what I tried today, is so clearly incorrect that it would be screwing up my efficiency.

3. Finally, and I'm going to address this for my next brew, is the crush of the grains. I have my LHBS do the crushing, and next time I buy from them I'm going to ask about adjusting the crush or running it through twice.

Despite all this frustration, my last few batches have been my best tasting brews yet, so that's definitely some consolation.

Anything else you all can point out that I could do better would be awesome. Thanks so much; I really enjoy the site.

 

[Pratzie]

Maybe look for a different setup for the mashtun instead of the SS braid. Check out How to Brew by Palmer, his book has a few suggestions on how to build a manifold given fluid dynamics and all that stuff. I use bazook a screen from brewhardware.com but im looking at getting a false bottom from Jaybird, although my cooler is a round 10 gallon rubbermaid.

Something also def has to be up with ur pre-boil/post-boil gravitiy readings. How much water do u boil off in an hour? and how long are u boiling?

Also, why does it take so long to drain from ur cooler into the BK. That seems VERY excessive with a batch sparge. I could see that being normal for fly sparging where ur adding water at the same rate u drain but not for batch sparging.

Finally, i def think there's an issue with the crush if ur pre-boil gravity is off. If u have any grain left or for another batch, take a pic and post it here. Alot of the guys who crush their own can take a look and tell ya if its good or bad.

Edit: Oh and I don't have any experience with that particular software however I went out and bought Beersmith and I love it. There's a mobile app u can use with ur ipad/iphone and there is also an option to print out a sheet with all the directions on it. I usually print that out AND use the iPad app and it works for me pretty well.

 

[Red_Scooter]

How do you mill your grain? Do you mill it yourself or have an LHBS mill it for you? if you mill it, check your crush and make sure it's good, maybe condition your grain before hand. If you do not mill your own grain, ask for it to be double milled.

 

[Yooper]

I think the answer is in question #2.


If you're batch sparging, don't drain slowly over 45 minutes. You open the MLT, add the sparge water, stir like you mean it, vorlauf and drain. It takes like 4 minutes.

You seem to be doing more of a fly sparge with the slow drain, but as you're not adding more water the sugars will "stick" back to the grain.

Since you have a braid and aren't set up for fly sparging, check out dennybrew.com on expert advice on how to do a batch sparge properly and with good efficiency. It really is helpful!

 

[RoundKid]

Do you drain the tun before adding your sparge water? I did not see that in your process description. If you are not draining the first runnings before you add your sparge water, that is your problem. You are diluting the first runnings rather than rinsing the grain.

Next time you brew, take a gravity reading after each step (first runnings and sparge) rather than just preboil. This will give you more data to find your issue.

 

[Pratzie]

I think the answer is in question #2.


If you're batch sparging, don't drain slowly over 45 minutes. You open the MLT, add the sparge water, stir like you mean it, vorlauf and drain. It takes like 4 minutes.

You seem to be doing more of a fly sparge with the slow drain, but as you're not adding more water the sugars will "stick" back to the grain.

Since you have a braid and aren't set up for fly sparging, check out dennybrew.com on expert advice on how to do a batch sparge properly and with good efficiency. It really is helpful!

BeerSmith puts in the two different amounts of water for their batch sparge. I asked about this about a month ago and no one could give me a good answer, but this finally did. Thanks again Yooper!

 

[zstar5000]

Thanks everyone. On my next brew I'll redo my batch sparge method. Assuming that gets me some extra efficiency points, I'll next try to get a finer crush.

 

[RM-MN]

The finer crush should help but you might also benefit from a longer mash. Try a 90 minute mash instead of 60.

 

[phenry]

I'd imagine your crush is the biggest factor. Second is to just do simple batch sparging. Third, are you correcting for temperature on your gravity readings? There's no way you should only go from 1.064 to 1.066 during a 1 hour boil.

 

[zstar5000]

Yeah, I adjusted for temp on my gravity reading like I normally do. That's why I'm convinced I misread the preboil reading, because you're absolutely right that it's impossible to only move two points in an hour.

 

[deuce40]

As stated above hake sure that you are draining your first runnings before adding sparage water.

 

[Jayhem]

I will bet you money...IT IS THE GRAIN CRUSH!

I did 4 AG batches with grain crushed by my LHBS and got 57% and 62% effeciency from them.

Then I bought my own barley crusher, learned to water condition grain and mill it finer and ever since with the exact same equipment I get 82-90% efficiency every single time! Get yourself a Barley Crusher. It will pay for itself!

 

[wilserbrewer]

Take a close look at your spent grain if still available, you should see very few to no whole pieces of barley, of there is uncrushed barley in your grist you have your answer.

 

[funnycreature]

BeerSmith puts in the two different amounts of water for their batch sparge. I asked about this about a month ago and no one could give me a good answer, but this finally did. Thanks again Yooper!

It took me some time too but here's what Brad at Beersmith says about the batch sparge. From what I understand you add the first volume of water directly to the mash, drain, and then add the second volume.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

You might also try doing an iodine test after your mash to confirm you are converting all the starch to sugar. Some grains take longer than others to convert. Perhaps 60 minutes isn't enough for your grain bill

 

[funnycreature]

1. My mash tun. Any reason why my mash set-up could contribute to poor efficiency?

2. My method. I can't for the life of me see where anything I'm doing, either my typical method or what I tried today, is so clearly incorrect that it would be screwing up my efficiency.

3. Finally, and I'm going to address this for my next brew, is the crush of the grains. I have my LHBS do the crushing, and next time I buy from them I'm going to ask about adjusting the crush or running it through twice.

Despite all this frustration, my last few batches have been my best tasting brews yet, so that's definitely some consolation.

Anything else you all can point out that I could do better would be awesome. Thanks so much; I really enjoy the site.

I have had abysmal efficiencies too. I think the culprit for me is that I dilute too much during sparging and I lose up to 1.5 gal in my kettle due to the cold break in heavy beers. I am currently looking into an immersion chiller/whirlpool solution to help contain the sediment better for more beer!

 

[broadbill]

3. Finally, and I'm going to address this for my next brew, is the crush of the grains. I have my LHBS do the crushing, and next time I buy from them I'm going to ask about adjusting the crush or running it through twice.

ding, ding, ding!!!!!!

 

[TheZymurgist]

I'll agree that crush could be a possibility, but I'm not sure that's definitely the answer. You mentioned you add the strike water, then close the lid at 152-154. That makes it sound like you're overshooting your mash temp, and letting it cool. If your strike temperature is too high, you run the risk of denaturing the enzymes to where they won't convert any starch to sugar.

What strike temperature are you using, and what is the temp immediately after you mix it in?

 

[broadbill]

I'll agree that crush could be a possibility, but I'm not sure that's definitely the answer. You mentioned you add the strike water, then close the lid at 152-154. That makes it sound like you're overshooting your mash temp, and letting it cool. If your strike temperature is too high, you run the risk of denaturing the enzymes to where they won't convert any starch to sugar.

What strike temperature are you using, and what is the temp immediately after you mix it in?

I think it goes without saying that multiple possibilities exist, but bad crush is so common a problem that he should investigate this one first/foremost before looking at any of the other less likely scenarios.

Its a common practice to mash in with hot water and let it equilibrate to the correct temp. It is very unlikely that this would be a huge factor in his efficiency. Anybody with a cooler mash tun pretty much does it in a identical fashion.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I think it goes without saying that multiple possibilities exist, but bad crush is so common a problem that he should investigate this one first/foremost before looking at any of the other less likely scenarios.

Its a common practice to mash in with hot water and let it equilibrate to the correct temp. It is very unlikely that this would be a huge factor in his efficiency. Anybody with a cooler mash tun pretty much does it in a identical fashion.

I use a cooler mash tun, so I'm aware of the process. I'm just pointing out the fact that it looks like he's overshooting his mash temp, and letting it cool. If he overshoots it by too much, he's denaturing enzymes which prevents conversion.

When I add strike water, I hit my target within a degree every time, no need to cool or heat. Since he made it sound like he's overshooting, I was just looking for more information to see whether that can be ruled out as a possibility, before running to the HBS and blaming them before we know that's the likely culprit.

 

[Jayhem]

I use a cooler mash tun, so I'm aware of the process. I'm just pointing out the fact that it looks like he's overshooting his mash temp, and letting it cool. If he overshoots it by too much, he's denaturing enzymes which prevents conversion.

When I add strike water, I hit my target within a degree every time, no need to cool or heat. Since he made it sound like he's overshooting, I was just looking for more information to see whether that can be ruled out as a possibility, before running to the HBS and blaming them before we know that's the likely culprit.

Are you calling 154F overshooting mash temp? I mash my amber at 156 and get 82% efficiency.

 

[dixosx]

My efficency sucked until I bought a grain mill and crushed my own grains. That is my guess.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Are you calling 154F overshooting mash temp? I mash my amber at 156 and get 82% efficiency.

No, my point is only that the OP did not state what temp he mashes in at. Again, from what he said, it appears that he is mashing in high, and letting it cool. I'm only trying to find out what temp he's mashing in at, so that it can be ruled out. It's seriously that simple. I don't understand why you guys are looking for an argument. The whole point of this thread is to rule out what the issues might be to find the culprit of low efficiency. Wouldn't it be easier to rule this issue out before they goes and talks to their HBS about the crush?

 

[Jayhem]

No, my point is only that the OP did not state what temp he mashes in at. Again, from what he said, it appears that he is mashing in high, and letting it cool. I'm only trying to find out what temp he's mashing in at, so that it can be ruled out. It's seriously that simple. I don't understand why you guys are looking for an argument. The whole point of this thread is to rule out what the issues might be to find the culprit of low efficiency. Wouldn't it be easier to rule this issue out before they goes and talks to their HBS about the crush?

I misunderstood, sorry. You mean what is his strike water temp?

What water temp is supposed to cause denaturing of enzymes? I want to say I usually have a strike temp in the mid-170's and never had an efficiency under 80%.