Do you know how to make a yeast starter? Then why not farm yeast and freeze it?

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I am still frustrated with this formula. I don't know what my final volume is going to be, how does anyone know that?. I need the formula for figuring out how much glycerine solution is require for a specified amount of yeast slurry. What is that?

Is this correct?

Yeast Slurry Volume / 0.30= Total Volume
Total Volume * 0.7= Glycerine Solution Volume
Glycerine Solution Volume *0.6= Glycerine Volume

You're thinking about it too hard/much... Once the starter is done, you can cold crash it, or let it settle long enough, to get a volume measure in your flask. Then use that to determine how much additional glycerine solution to make up, and at what concentration, to get your freeze-ready slurry made.

I picked up a set of graduated beakers after the first batch was in the freezer, for use next time. That will go a long way to helping me to get where I want to be (higher accuracy than the flask).

I'm looking to use one of the frozen tubes of yeast for my next batch. Just have other things going on in the basement (shop and brewery) right now. Once that stuff is finished, I'll be able to brew there again.
 
I am still frustrated with this formula. I don't know what my final volume is going to be, how does anyone know that?. I need the formula for figuring out how much glycerine solution is require for a specified amount of yeast slurry. What is that?

Is this correct?

Yeast Slurry Volume / 0.30= Total Volume
Total Volume * 0.7= Glycerine Solution Volume
Glycerine Solution Volume *0.6= Glycerine Volume

In the example that I gave, I already had a jar of 60% glycerine solution sterilized. The formula I provided tells you how much of that 60% solution I had to mix with my slurry in order to hit my target volume and target final glycerine concentration. If you are working with pure glycerine, it's a lot easier. Decided what you want your final concentration to be. I've been going with 20% by volume. Then you decide what you want your final volume to be. Final volume * .20 = volume of glycerine needed.
 
These numbers are all jumbled to me. Unless they're written in a formula, math does not make sense to me. Why there is no formula here using yeast slurry to figure out the other numbers? You said, "you decide what you want your final volume to be." How? I am given the slurry, I don't have any say in how much the final volume will be, it's got to be based off that slurry volume, doesn't it?

Where are you getting 'final volume' from? I'm sorry I'm so dense, but this just doesn't make sense to me.
 
You're thinking about it too hard/much... Once the starter is done, you can cold crash it, or let it settle long enough, to get a volume measure in your flask. Then use that to determine how much additional glycerine solution to make up, and at what concentration, to get your freeze-ready slurry made.

I picked up a set of graduated beakers after the first batch was in the freezer, for use next time. That will go a long way to helping me to get where I want to be (higher accuracy than the flask).

I'm looking to use one of the frozen tubes of yeast for my next batch. Just have other things going on in the basement (shop and brewery) right now. Once that stuff is finished, I'll be able to brew there again.

That was my question, how do you figure that out? Can you provide a formula? If I have 200 ml of slurry, how can I plug that into a formula that tells me how much glycerine and water to use?
 
That was my question, how do you figure that out? Can you provide a formula? If I have 200 ml of slurry, how can I plug that into a formula that tells me how much glycerine and water to use?

You're way overcomplicating this. I'll see if I can walk you through this.

Final volume is how much liquid you end up with after you mix in the glycerine. Here are a few examples that should help.

Scenario 1

You have 150 ml of yeast slurry. You want to know how much glycerine to add so that the final concentration is 20% by volume. Working with percents is kind of weird. We're shooting for 20% glycerine, so we have to divide the volume of slurry we have by 80% to find out what the final volume would be with 20% glycerine mixed in. If we wanted 30% glycerine, then we would divide by 70%, Here is the equation.
Volume of Yeast slurry / 0.8 = final volume. We have 150 ml of slurry. 150 / 0.8 = 187.5 ml. Now that we know the final volume, we can subtract the amount of slurry we already have (150 ml) to determine how much glycerine we need. 187.5 - 150 = 37.5. So, you add 37.5 ml of glycerine to the 150 ml of slurry that you already have and then freeze it. We now have a final concentration of glycerine of 20%. 37.5 / 187.5 = 0.2

Scenario 2

You have 150 ml of slurry. You want to use this slurry to fill (5) 100 ml vials. You want a final concentration of glycerine of 20% by volume. In this instance, we know what the final volume is going to be, 500 ml, becasue that is what we need to fill all the vials. Here is the equation for this one.
Desired final volume * desired glycerine concentration % = glycerine needed. 500 ml * .20 = 100. So, we add 100 ml of glycerine to the yeast slurry we already have and then add water to top it off at 500 ml. Then you fill the vials and freeze.

Scenario 3

You have 150 ml of yeast slurry. You want to use this slurry to fill (5) 100 ml vials. You want a final concentration of glycerine of 20% by volume. You have a pre-sterillized jar of 60% by volume glycerine solution. You want to know how much of the 60% solution to add to your yeast slurry. Here is the equation.
(Desired final volume * desired glycerine concentration %) / concetration of existing glycerine solution = glycerine solution needed

Our final volume is going to be 500 ml because that's what we need to fill the vials. We want 20% glycerine. Our pre-sterilzed glycerine solution is 60% by volume. (500 ml * 0.20) / 0.60 = ~167 ml. So, we add 167 ml of our glycerine solution to the 150 ml of yeast slurry that we already have. Then we top off with water to get 500 ml. Then fill the vials and freeze them.

Hopefully that helps, I'm not the greatest at explaining things sometimes. :mug:
 
Thanks man, got it. The 60% solution was what was killing me. I messed up a batch last night because of that. I'm just going to do the 1st one (yeast slurry/0.8)-yeast slurry=glycerine volume.
 
I have notes on how much slurry in the container and how much glycerine solution (at the percentage) to add. I think I even posted it up in this thread back when I was doing the first batch.

I hope you have a fairly accurate way to measure the different aspects/solutions. I don't think being off by a few ML will be bad, but you don't want to drift too far.
 
Formula for dummies. Like the book series. If you use 100 ml of slurry you use 100ml of solution which is 7 parts sterile water to 3 parts glycerol mixture so 70ml water and 30 ml glycerol.

100ml slurry = 70ml water + 30 ml glycerol.
Freezer product =100s +(70w+30g)
 
Formula for dummies. Like the book series. If you use 100 ml of slurry you use 100ml of solution which is 7 parts sterile water to 3 parts glycerol mixture so 70ml water and 30 ml glycerol.

100ml slurry = 70ml water + 30 ml glycerol.
Freezer product =100s +(70w+30g)

Thanks for that JFK. I like the dummies approach to things involving figures.

Your figures do vary from BBLs suggested ratios and will result in 15% Glycerine as opposed to BBLs 20%. Guess either will be ok.

Have just finished freezing some yeast using BBLs suggested ratios so will wait 3 months and see how they survive.

The piece of equipment I found most useful was a 250ml boro glass measuring cylinder which allowed me to accurately measure the volumes of glycerine, water and yeast slurry.
 
Hey guys...I don't have a pressure cooker, so would boiling all of my containers for 10 minutes be okay?

I would say go a little longer maybe 20-30 minutes to be on the safe side. Botulinum can actually survive the boiling water method, but since wort could be considered an acidic medium (pH 5.2) with careful sanitation you should be ok. Also don't start your boil time until after the pot returns to a full boil once you place your jars into the water bath.
 
I had no choice to boil some of those plastic 50ml vials from amazon and was surprised they held up. I had some a while back from a different manufacturer that turned cloudy, these remained clear and didn't warp.
 
IT'S WORKING.....IT'S WORKING!!!! Been frozen for a month and put it on the stir plate last night. 24 hours later...we have fermentation!
Here were my steps:
Day 1...
1) I washed the yeast well, and stored in fridge overnight.
2) Boiled a solution of 30% glycerin/70% water in a sanitized jar in microwave for 2 minutes. Then store in fridge overnight as well.
3) Boiled my 1 oz. storage vials for 20 minutes. Removed and cooled them, then let soak in star-san overnight.

Day 2...
1) Filled a sanitized measuring glass with equal amounts of yeast and glycerin solution.
2) Mixed them well, then used a sanitized syringe to fill my vials about 80% full. Then put the cap on tightly.
3) Stored in fridge for 2 days. Whenever I would go to fridge, I would shake the vials to get yeast back into suspension.

Day 4...
1) Loosened caps and stored in deep freezer.

Day 5...Tightened caps up as yeast was frozen.
Week 4...
1) Removed from freezer and put in a 2 quart jar of 70* water until thawed. Then added to stir plate and starter.



Thank you so much for this post!:rockin: This information is going to save me a ton of money!
 
IT'S WORKING.....IT'S WORKING!!!! Been frozen for a month and put it on the stir plate last night. 24 hours later...we have fermentation!
Here were my steps:
Day 1...
1) I washed the yeast well, and stored in fridge overnight.
2) Boiled a solution of 30% glycerin/70% water in a sanitized jar in microwave for 2 minutes. Then store in fridge overnight as well.
3) Boiled my 1 oz. storage vials for 20 minutes. Removed and cooled them, then let soak in star-san overnight.

Day 2...
1) Filled a sanitized measuring glass with equal amounts of yeast and glycerin solution.
2) Mixed them well, then used a sanitized syringe to fill my vials about 80% full. Then put the cap on tightly.
3) Stored in fridge for 2 days. Whenever I would go to fridge, I would shake the vials to get yeast back into suspension.

Day 4...
1) Loosened caps and stored in deep freezer.

Day 5...Tightened caps up as yeast was frozen.
Week 4...
1) Removed from freezer and put in a 2 quart jar of 70* water until thawed. Then added to stir plate and starter.



Thank you so much for this post!:rockin: This information is going to save me a ton of money!

I'm glad it worked out for ya. And yes you will save a lot of money.
 
I had no choice to boil some of those plastic 50ml vials from amazon and was surprised they held up. I had some a while back from a different manufacturer that turned cloudy, these remained clear and didn't warp.

Sorry for pulling up an old post, but I was curious about the "boiling the 50 ml Amazon vials" thing. If you get the product like these that are listed as sterile in the product description, there's no reason to boil them, right? Just pop open, fill, and re-seal, ya?
 
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Sorry for pulling up an old post, but I was curious about the "boiling the 50 ml Amazon vials" thing. If you get the product like these that are listed as sterile in the product description, there's no reason to boil them, right? Just pop open, fill, and re-seal, ya?

Correct!
 
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Is there any reason you can't submerge in isopropyl and then rinse with star san? I feel like this should effectively sterilize, but I would like to know if I'm wrong.
 
Simple question I can't seem to find answered in this thread: Are folks autoclaving the vessel they make the yeast starter in? Or just the equipment they use to handle/store the yeast when harvesting from the starter?
 
If you have an autoclave available you can just make your starter from wort made from malt extract and then autoclave and everything is sterile. If you don't, you can sanitize your flask or growing vessel and then use whatever wort you are using for your starter (presumably boiled). Everything should be carefully sanitized or sterilized for starters because it has the most danger of getting contaminated. If it does and you freeze that yeast, the subsequent brews will all have that contamination. Better safe than sorry.
 
I do have an autoclave (more precisely, a pressure canner). I currently autoclave starter wort, and my plan would be to also prepare some autoclaved jars of glycerin/water solution. I'm also going to get a stainless baster (which I really should have for hydrometer samples anyway), and just wrap that in foil and stick in the oven for about a half hour prior to starting the harvesting.

But autoclaving the flask at the outset of building up the yeast culture would be a whole 'nother step, and rather a pain in the ass, that I'm hoping to avoid. What is the general consensus on that, is that step essential?
 
Is it necessary to add DME to a yeast starter made from frozen yeast if I'll be using it for hard cider?

Will it not alter the taste?

Thank you
 
kukubau said:
Is it necessary to add DME to a yeast starter made from frozen yeast if I'll be using it for hard cider?

Will it not alter the taste?

Thank you

I'm a fan of using the same base ingredients as my finished product. With that said, I would just use the juice with yeast nutrients.
 
Folks:
I don't autoclave anything. Used only Basic-A or 1-Step soln. for several hundred vessels and containers and had NO infections. My oldest is an ale, from 10/12. I do, however, always wear rubber gloves.
The warning on ethylene glycol is a very good idea, but you can be totally safe by decanting all the liquid after each time you step up the yeast mass; just pour it off.
 
Folks:
I don't autoclave anything. Used only Basic-A or 1-Step soln. for several hundred vessels and containers and had NO infections. My oldest is an ale, from 10/12. I do, however, always wear rubber gloves.
The warning on ethylene glycol is a very good idea, but you can be totally safe by decanting all the liquid after each time you step up the yeast mass; just pour it off.

If you're careful, you can get by with the minimum. But an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
 
I don't know if others have tried this, but to save a step and to get the purest culture possible, I've been pouring a small portion of the slurry from the Wyeast pack or White Labs vial or ECY jar directly into my sterilized, glycerin/water-filled test tubes. Then I go on to use the reduced initial volume to make my starter. Anyone see a drawback to this approach?
 
I'm planning on using this method, and I have a pressure canner, but I still don't see why you wouldn't can the water doing hot water bath canning? It's not like the ph of water is low enough to require pressure canning and when using such small jars, it would actually take less time in the hot water bath. You could have done a few batches of canned water in the time it would take to pressure can and cool one batch.

Did I misread? Are you canning wort and using that for a starter?

Edit: Nevermind.. I'm thinking backwards.. You'd need a ph of 4.6 or less to hot water can.
 
I don't know if others have tried this, but to save a step and to get the purest culture possible, I've been pouring a small portion of the slurry from the Wyeast pack or White Labs vial or ECY jar directly into my sterilized, glycerin/water-filled test tubes. Then I go on to use the reduced initial volume to make my starter. Anyone see a drawback to this approach?

Nothing other than you'd have to make a small starter, say 500ml to start off such a small number of cells. Then go to 1L or 2L or whatever to get your numbers.

If you have the ability to step up to 5L on the first go, you can save either 100 billion cells per jar, knowing you'd need to make one starter most times when you thaw it, or you could do more and make it pitch able.

I'm about to do this with some San Fran lager yeast and had planned on packaging it in approx. 300-400 billion cell increments. This way, I can warm it and pitch, at least at the gravities I would be using that yeast at. I have ECY21 Kolsch I'm going to do next, and will package that between 100-200 billion cells.
 
I don't know if others have tried this, but to save a step and to get the purest culture possible, I've been pouring a small portion of the slurry from the Wyeast pack or White Labs vial or ECY jar directly into my sterilized, glycerin/water-filled test tubes. Then I go on to use the reduced initial volume to make my starter. Anyone see a drawback to this approach?

I'm stating the obvious, but you'd want to get the freshest pack possible so you're freezing healthy yeast and keeping your viable cell count up. And like cerevid pointed out, you'll have to start with small steps which will increase the amount of time it will take you to hit your pitching rate. It would help decrease chances of contamination though if you're not confident about your sanitation.
 
I don't know if others have tried this, but to save a step and to get the purest culture possible, I've been pouring a small portion of the slurry from the Wyeast pack or White Labs vial or ECY jar directly into my sterilized, glycerin/water-filled test tubes. Then I go on to use the reduced initial volume to make my starter. Anyone see a drawback to this approach?
So long as you're very careful to sanitize the package and work under an alcohol lamp in a draft free area, I think that's a great idea. Realistically if it's just a couple vials you're using I don't think you need to reduce your starter size. 10x step ups is what the big boys do, so if you'd do a 2Q starter with 100B cells, doing it with 75B cells is still doable. Your final count won't be quite as high as it would have been, but the yeast will reproduce plenty to make you a pitchable starter.
 
I don't know if others have tried this, but to save a step and to get the purest culture possible, I've been pouring a small portion of the slurry from the Wyeast pack or White Labs vial or ECY jar directly into my sterilized, glycerin/water-filled test tubes. Then I go on to use the reduced initial volume to make my starter. Anyone see a drawback to this approach?

I always start from a wyest packs!
I usually make 6 vials of yeast (17ml of slurry without breaking the inner bag) + 1,5ml glycerine from each packege. So every year I just buy the strain of yeasts that I want to use and freeze them to be able to use it all year long.

I made some calculation and also perform a lot of test/brewing with this method, you need to start with a very small starter (200-300ml) and then grow up to 1,6 liter. I've tried also a 3 starter procedure when I need lot of yeast. No contamination, or any other kind of problem found.
 
So, I've recently discovered this thread. I, too, have had an interest in freezing yeast and am assembling the gear to do it. But the knowledge... that's been a little trickier. This thread has been a gold mine of data for me and I'd like to throw in something I came across as it seems relevant.

When I suspect that a good deal is known about something pretty technical but nobody technical is talking, I turn to patent searches. They can refuse to give *you* any info, but if it's a coveted process it gets spelled out in a patent. So, I came across this patent:

1) Granted in 1997. It deals with baker's yeast and the cryoprotectant properties of adding glycerol in various concentrations and freezing at -21 deg C. Concentrations were .2 M, .3 M, and .4 M. The .4 M concentration had the greatest improvement of yeast viability .4 M translates to just 3.7% glycerol in water concentration by weight (2.8% by volume), an interesting level of concentration given Forkhead's experiment indicating that, at this freezing temp, he found 7.5% by volume concentration ideal. I think this brackets the range we're looking at: 3% to 8%. Pretty small doses.

2) This excerpt shows glycerol uptake by yeast over a period of days. Interesting, huh? Remember, though, glycerol is yeast poison, so these extended contact times, while increasing glycerol uptake, don't translate necessarily to better viability. There must a sweet spot.

3) Finally, this excerpt shows proof times after freezing then thawing and proofing the yeast. Using the proof times of baker's yeast is a clever way of assessing yeast viability without high tech equipment, I think. Bottom line: 3 days at 4 deg C is optimum data point for yeast viability. Based on this, I would recommend that the 4 deg C storage time be increased from 48 hours to 72 hours.

A lovely creation this thread and it's associated tutorial is.

Thanks to all.

View attachment 1patent for glycerol-water yeast treatment.pdf

View attachment 2uptake of glycerol.pdf

View attachment 3yeast performance.pdf
 
So, I've recently discovered this thread. I, too, have had an interest in freezing yeast and am assembling the gear to do it. But the knowledge... that's been a little trickier. This thread has been a gold mine of data for me and I'd like to throw in something I came across as it seems relevant.

When I suspect that a good deal is known about something pretty technical but nobody technical is talking, I turn to patent searches. They can refuse to give *you* any info, but if it's a coveted process it gets spelled out in a patent. So, I came across this patent:

1) Granted in 1997. It deals with baker's yeast and the cryoprotectant properties of adding glycerol in various concentrations and freezing at -21 deg C. Concentrations were .2 M, .3 M, and .4 M. The .4 M concentration had the greatest improvement of yeast viability .4 M translates to just 3.7% glycerol in water concentration by weight (2.8% by volume), an interesting level of concentration given Forkhead's experiment indicating that, at this freezing temp, he found 7.5% by volume concentration ideal. I think this brackets the range we're looking at: 3% to 8%. Pretty small doses.

2) This excerpt shows glycerol uptake by yeast over a period of days. Interesting, huh? Remember, though, glycerol is yeast poison, so these extended contact times, while increasing glycerol uptake, don't translate necessarily to better viability. There must a sweet spot.

3) Finally, this excerpt shows proof times after freezing then thawing and proofing the yeast. Using the proof times of baker's yeast is a clever way of assessing yeast viability without high tech equipment, I think. Bottom line: 3 days at 4 deg C is optimum data point for yeast viability. Based on this, I would recommend that the 4 deg C storage time be increased from 48 hours to 72 hours.

A lovely creation this thread and it's associated tutorial is.

Thanks to all.

Very cool. Never thought about checking for patents. Very sneaky, I like it. Thanks for the contribution!
 
Having read through all of the posts on this thread, I now see that Forkhead's ideal glycerol%concentration was amended from 7.5% to 15% for the long term viability experiment. The 7.5% number came from a short term test where the sample was frozen and then a short time later, thawed. Since the point of freezing is long term viability, he amended to 15%.

It is curious that the ideal glycerol%concentration for freezing hovers around 15% whether freezing at -20C or -80C. An inpection of a glycerol%solution (by weight) table indicates that a 15% glycerol solution (by weight) yields a specific gravity of about 1.036. Curiously, this is an ideal gravity of a yeast starter when propagating yeast. Could it be that the 15% glycerol solution is ideal because of an ideal osmotic pressure gradient? Not too much. Not too little. But just the right amount of inward osmotic pressure for optimum glycerol uptake and yeast comfort?
 
Hey all,

Regarding the glycerin/water solution, is there reason to believe that this stuff would have a limited shelf life (uncanned, in the fridge)?

Basically, in preparation for harvesting yeast to freeze, I can up some 4 oz jars of 2-1 glycerin/water mixture. I then blend in the solution 4-1 in the yeast slurry which gives me around 17% glycerin. Probably close enough for government work...

Anyhow, when I'm done, I have leftover solution (by design, so as to make sure I have enough!). What I would like to do is screw the top back on the jar and stick it in the fridge, then next time I pull out the pressure canner to make starter wort or whatever, re-combine the mostly-empty jars and re-can it to sterilize it.

The stuff could potentially be sitting in the refrigerator for a couple of months.

Is there anything that would likely go wrong with it? Obviously any organisms that were in it would get killed in the canner, but is there nasty stuff that it could have grown, or is the solution too dense?

Thanks
 
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