One question: Why?
Seriously, why did you use tortilla chips rather than just using corn?
when is it not beer?
- Thread starter cageybee
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Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
One question: Why?
Seriously, why did you use tortilla chips rather than just using corn?
I was wondering if you were doing it just to see if it would work or because you thought it added something special.
I am much newer at this than you Revvy, so I don't even think about these kinds of experimentation. In am still at the point of experimenting within the generally used ingredients. Specifically, I am trying to push the limits on the different flavor profiles from different malts.
Popcorn tastes different from corn, as does tortilla chips....different flavor profiles, therefore you want to see if there's different flavors, which there usually are.
Plus it's more fun or challenging to make a cream ale out of popcorn or tortilla chips then to just use straight flaked corn. Or a ginger spiced brown ale using actual ginger snaps rather than just using spices.
That's why I like to enter iron brewer comps, you never know what they'll hand you.
CreamyGoodness
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Have you ever tried rice cakes?
I haven't because I prefer corn as an adjucnt over rice (hence why I don't like Budweiser's beers, they're rice adjuncted.)
But folks have used puffed rice cereal, which is really no different than a rice cake. I'm sure it would work in a cereal mash. It may even work without a cereal mash in a mash tun with 2-row, since the popping to make it puffy may act like flaked corn by becomming pre-gelatinized.
Caramel flavored rice cakes might be interesting in a dark beer.
CreamyGoodness
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Interesting. I noticed that you havent mentioned okra, however.
Isn't bacon from a mammal?
At some point, maybe for next winter I'll do a bacon bourbon Stout using home cured bacon, and infusing more bourbon with bacon like I show in this thread. Then add that to the batch at kegging time.
Funny you say that. I just bottled a bourbon/oak stout I had sitting on bacon for about a week. Only siphoned off a growler worth to sit on the bacon just in case it turned out to be the most horrendous thing I've ever tasted. Actually tasted really good when bottling it though. Hard to pick up "bacon" flavor, but definitely get the more smokey/savory tones which adds a really nice element.
CreamyGoodness
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I really really hope okra doesnt become my legacy. Hopefully Ill have some more successful experiments.
CreamyGoodness
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D'oh!
I actually found out in my bacon bourbon experiments that the more bacon you use, the better. The second batch I actually infused twice...I used about 6 slices of my own maple bacon bourbon, then after that went back and used a full pound of commercial bacon. That batch is fantastic.
Which really just adds to the substantial evidence pile of, you can really never have too much bacon. Period.
cageybee
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If this thread goes much beyond okra, I may have to unsubscribe.... "what I learned today" (again): be careful what you ask for.
I can't help myself....eggplant?
I can't help myself....eggplant?
CreamyGoodness
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Eggplant would be interesting. I still have my eyes on sweet corn and asparagus.
Maybe step one would be to put some asparagus in a bottle of grolsch and let it hang out in the fridge for a couple of weeks...
Maybe step one would be to put some asparagus in a bottle of grolsch and let it hang out in the fridge for a couple of weeks...
cageybee
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seems like eggplant (I only ate it once with undesirable results) would add a bitterness that might be redundant with hops
Revvy -- here is question that the less experienced of us might want answered:
What percentage of the time that you experiment with an out of the ordinary ingredient do you think it ends up making the beer better that it would have been with a more traditional ingredient? I hear you saying that the ginger snap beer is better, but was the tortilla chip beer better than a beer using flaked corn?
The reason I ask is that I am rarely able to brew enough to really get my pipeline to the point that I can afford for a string of beers that I don't really enjoy. Even one "bad" beer can really screw up my pipeline (I tend to have BBQs at my house quite often so my beer tends to go rather quickly), and a bad beer that happens at the wrong time (e.g., right after I make a beer that will need substantial aging) will really screw things up.
ladodger34
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I completely agree with you on that. I've discovered a ton of new tastes (alcohol, food, etc) in recent years now that I've opened my mind a little bit more. At worst, I figure it is only one meal/drink/whatever and even if I hate it, it will be over soon enough.
More often than not, I end up liking stuff when I go out on the wild side.
JeepDiver
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citingzero
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+1 ^^^
rklinck,
I experiment about 10% of the time and about half the time it is really good, other half just OK to mediocre. When I do...I usually brew a full 5 gal batch, then keg (or bottle) half of the beer and rack the other half into secondary for the experimental ingredient addition.
So, A cilantro-lime Pale Ale would get half the batch dry-hopped normally for a standard PA and kegged. Other half goes into secondary with lime zest and cilantro in a vodka infusion.
That one turned out great. My Marionberry Strong Ale not so much. The 2.5 gals of strong ale on its own was fantastic, the half with Marionberries sucked...not a dumper, but not good. Not a big loss to have half a batch every 8-10th brew not be so good. But half my experiments are good, so it is a mediocre half batch out of every 20 full batches.
I have half of the same Strong Ale aging on whisky soaked oak cubes right now...I think this one will be really good based on the sample I tried at 2 weeks of aging.
Thanks. This certainly makes sense for additions that you can do at the dry hopping stage. I could always do it with something even smaller (e.g. 1 gallon of a batch) if it is something really off the wall.
Of course, you wouldn't have this option when you decide to try Revvy's suggestion of using tortilla chips in place of corn in your mash. Those types of experiments are the ones that really scare me.
Why? Don't you understand the principle? The FLAKED corn we use most of the time is pre-gelatiniezed, it's cooked and flattened, which helps convert the starch in there to sugar...what do you thing happens when they make tortilla chips, or corn flake cereal, or when we pop popcorn? We're pre-gelatinizing the cornstarh, which helps convert the starch to sugar....
It's the same thing.....
There's two types of experimentation, what most noobs do of the "Let's throw a bunch of crap into the fermenter and see what happens." And then there's the "So if the principle of this part of the brewing process is x, and this food item has also gone through this process, then therefore more than likely the same effect will happen."
People use many forms of corn in brewing, grits, flaked corn, popcorn, creamed corn, corn starch, hominy, plain old corn sugar. Each type have to be handled differently, but it's still nothing but putting it into a form where the starch with be converted to sugar.....They may each have a slightly different flavor which will make them unigue, but it's still all the same process......
Same with using bread and other baked goods...the first historical brews were made from or with bread, look up bappir, and the experiments the Maltose Falcons did.
My experiments and most of the non noob ones are of the LATTER variety. Think about Sam Caligione and all the research that goes into it....I do a lot of research to get to the point of using something strange...there is usually an underlying reason...
It's not "experimentation" if you don't understand, or have experience with the BASICS first.
My take on this is that there is a difference between true experimentation and throwing things together "willy nilly." I have noticed on here is that a lot of noobs think what they are doing is experimentation, when in reality they are just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks.
Throwing a bunch of stuff in your fermenter and seeing what you get at the end, and ending up making an "is my beer ruined" thread is not the same thing as experimenting.
To me, in order to experiment truly, you have to have an understanding of the fundamentals. You have to know how the process works somewhat. You have to have an understanding of how different ingredients or processes affect the final product. You may even need to know, or at least understand something about beer styles, and what goes into making one beer a Porter and another a pale ale. And where your concoction will fall on the continuoum.
To me it's like cooking or even Jazz. But going back to the cooking analogy. Coming up with a balanced and tasty recipe takes some understanding of things...just like cooking...dumping a cup of salt will more than likely ruin a recipe...so if you cook, you KNOW not to do that...it's the same with brewing...you get an idea with experience and looking at recipes, brewing and playing with software how things work..what flavors work with each other, etc...
That to me is the essence of creating...I have gotten to a point where I understand what I am doing, I get how ingredients work or don't work with each other, so I am not just throwing a bunch of stuff together to see what I get.
I have an idea of what I want it to taste like, and my challenge then is to get the right combination of ingredients to match what is in my head. That's also pretty much how I come up with new food recipes as well.
homebrewdad
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Ding ding ding!
Nope, I understand the principle that you can use these ingredients. My question is whether it ultimately makes the beer better more often than not.
As you point out, people have been brewing for a very long time. And over time, the "community" wisdom has refined the process. (Funny how we are actually getting back to the original point of this thread). I think that most people would say that beer is a beverage that starts with some sort of malt, has some hops, and has some yeast. I know this wasn't always the case, but over time beer brewers have refined the process to get us to this point in history. I tend to think that these refinements have improved beer over time through a process akin to natural selection in the animal kingdom. Survival of the fittest has resulted in the best practices (and types of recipes) being accepted and replicated. Less successful practices and recipes have fallen by the wayside. This is not to say that interesting things have not been lost without good reason (e.g., some beer styles have nearly died out and are making a resurgence). But, I think that beer has been evolving and improving over time. And the thousands of years of evolution have brought us to the point that we use malt (generally wheat, barley, corn, and/or rice), hops, yeast, and water as the basic ingredients in beer.
I understand that Dogfish Head is doing interesting stuff by researching some of the long dead "beer" recipes and trying to recreate them. But, I can say that I do not enjoy these beverages. I would much prefer to brew myself an excellent stout or excellent pale ale than to make Midas Touch. This, of course, is a matter of taste.
To use your cooking example, I love watching the show "Chopped" because it is interesting to see what the chefs can come up with from the sometimes crazy ingredients. That being said, if given the choice, I think I would enjoy a meal that any one of those chefs makes with more traditional ingredients more than what they come up with on Chopped at least 80% of the time.
My gut hunch is that the same is true with beer. Sure, I could replace some of my malted barley with Grape Nuts (which is made with barley flower). I understand the concept, my question is whether doing so will normally make a better beer. This is why my original question (which you still have not answered) was how often you found that your experimentation made the beer better than it would have been if you had stuck to traditional ingredients.
BobbiLynn
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I haven't been experimenting that long, but when I do, I agree with Revvy. You think, if this does this, and that does that, why can't I just use this or do that?. Educated guesses(from reading and experimenting) are far more effective then just throwing things together. Now, I have just thrown things together on a whim at times, but because it seemed to make sense and wouldn't this work?
cageybee
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your choice of the word "better" in your last sentence is interesting rklinck.
I assume you are referring to our earlier exchange about not judging people's taste? I understand that the question of whether the beer is "better" is necessarily subjective, and I am asking Revvy to give me his subjective opinion about the results.
cageybee
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nope, but our language and this media (text) fails us from time to time. I'm pondering whether one is making something "better" because it's closer to an expectation, or "better" because it exceeded expectation, or neither...that it is a different thing altogether but it is good. sometimes I think I like something more, but I find out later that I just like it too.
CreamyGoodness
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I liked your example from Chopped. If I can make a chocolate cake using baker's chocolate and white sugar, why not just use baker's chocolate and white sugar rather than with melted Twix and corn syrup?
My first response would be "why not?" Its a bit more of a challenge to make this come out good, and I might learn something useful for when I go back to using baker's chocolate and white sugar. This isnt even to mention that if I pull this off I can brag to my buddies.
My second response would be "this might be nice for a change." Maybe the flavor in the tortilla chip beer was unique. Better? Maybe/maybe not... but more likely just different. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Maybe the toastiness of the corn in the chips will go better with my next chicken dish than something made with traditional flaked corn.
I don't really have an answer for you Rklinc, probably not one that would satisfy you anyway, so just like in your mind about swapping ingredients, I'll say, "what's the point?" It seems pointless to go around and around about this.
The term "Better" is purely subjective. One person's trash is another person's treasure.
How about this, you continue to make beer in a way that makes YOU happy, and I'll continue to make beers that make me happy to make, which sometimes involve alternative ingredients. Ultimately this is a hobby....it's about what's fun for us, right? And for me sometimes making beers experimentally, and sometimes entering "chopped" type contests, which is what Iron Brewer comps pretty much are.
How's that?
Just like how Dogfish Head makes "extreme" beers, and another brewery makes Reinheitsgebot beers only, and some folks do a bit of both, there's plenty of room for all in this hobby, and in brewing in general.
The term "Better" is purely subjective. One person's trash is another person's treasure.
How about this, you continue to make beer in a way that makes YOU happy, and I'll continue to make beers that make me happy to make, which sometimes involve alternative ingredients. Ultimately this is a hobby....it's about what's fun for us, right? And for me sometimes making beers experimentally, and sometimes entering "chopped" type contests, which is what Iron Brewer comps pretty much are.
How's that?
Just like how Dogfish Head makes "extreme" beers, and another brewery makes Reinheitsgebot beers only, and some folks do a bit of both, there's plenty of room for all in this hobby, and in brewing in general.
cageybee
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don't want to be a pest Revvy, but how often are you pleasantly surprised by your experimentation? (understanding that learning is always a benefit)
BobbiLynn
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That is interesting. I enjoy different flavors in my beer. Like canned spaghetti sauce verses homemade. Sure Ragu is okay, I'll eat it on my pasta if that's all being served. But what if you added 12 cloves of roasted garlic and simmered down some fresh, organic tomatoes, maybe an extra onion and some wild mushrooms. Yum!
Pleasantly surprised, as in I expected it to taste like crap and it turned out great? Never. If I thought from the get go that it was going to taste like Satan's Anus I wouldn't even do it.
Like I said earlier, true experimentation comes from a basis of understanding fundamentals. Chopped is such a great show because they're trained chefs, or caterers or Cooks, people who have SOME understanding of flavor profiles and things like that. It would be a totally different show if you threw in a bunch of amateurs with little or no experience in it (like the show "Worst Chefs in America?) Even Master Chef the folks who make it, who get to do the basket challenges, were pretty gifted home cooks to make it, they weren't just kitchen noobs.
I'm usually expecting success when I try something, I know to a greater or lesser extent it's still going to be beer. It may not be what I ultimately hoped it would be, it might be better, it might be worse, but if it's worse, or a failure, that means I just have to keep trying to get it to where I want it or give up on it.
I tried for years to perfect a Ginger Orange Dortmunder, and none of them turned out the way my brain wanted them to be...they weren't dumpers, or bad beers, but I had a taste profile in my mind that I wasn't able to reach.
Though it's been several years since I tried, and I've learned some things, so maybe one day I might hit my mark.
The only beer I made that to be honest I hated was the iron brewer competition I took 3rd out of 16 teams with, for a Fennugreek Kolcsh. I hate it. Yet the BJCP judges still gave it high marks. (To tell the truth, none of us winners liked our own beers, though we liked each other's.) But we'd never make them again.....I'm trying to find someone who might like it to give them too. But that's the point of those types of contests, to reach beyond your comfort zone and challenge yourself.
This is all I am after. I understand the idea of different strokes for different folks. I am just at the point that I am trying to figure out whether I want to try some experimentation with non-traditional ingredients. If I have a reason to think that I will be pleasantly surprised by a decent number of these, then I will give it a go. If the upshot is to do it as a challenge, I will not be giving it a go. I get plenty of challenge in other parts of my life; I brew to make beers that suit my taste and that I enjoy drinking.
Yeah, but if you make yourself great spaghetti sauce from scratch on a regular basis, would you ever want to "try" to experiment to see if you could make good sauce using ketchup instead of fresh tomatoes?
BobbiLynn
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So you drink your beer, and think, what parts of this do I like? For example, that woody, smoky flavor/aroma is delicious, then you think what would replicate this? Personally, I don't like beers that are too sweet or too bitter. So always thinking of ways to "fix" my "mistakes". A good balance is a must. I'll still drink it if it's a little too sweet or a little too bitter for my tastes, but next time I want it to be perfect, a perfect balance, something I can really enjoy. And sweetness verses bitterness is just the beginning, what other flavors do I really enjoy in my beer? Just keep making it better, experimenting is a must to accomplish this. And then, as you age, your tastes change, so it's neverending. The quest for a perfect brew.
:rockin:
CreamyGoodness
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Not ketchup, but I would experiment with, say... sundried tomatoes.
Actually... I think Im going to do that next paycheck.
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