using a wine yeast to ferment an IPA?

[bernardsmith]

I see that many people on this forum use ale yeasts to ferment their cider and meads, but do brewers ever use wine yeasts to ferment their beer? I am thinking of pitching 71B or D47 to ferment a simple IPA (Marris Otter and EKG). Has anyone here tried this? Would they do it again or is this simply nuts?
For the record, I am not a purist and I am not into brewing "classic" styles. I simply want to brew (and ferment) liquors I might enjoy.

 

[progmac]

It might be worth trying...maybe not with five gallons, but one or three. I would lean towards a white wine type yeast that can ferment cool and then add some kind of fining to make it drop. The wine yeasts can take a very long time to drop clear otherwise.

 

[Yooper]

I think the main issue with using wine yeast in a beer (which has sugars to ferment that are mostly maltose and maltotriose) is that wine yeast has been bred to ferment simple sugars- fructose, sucrose, glucose, etc. While sucrose is a disaccharide, so in theory it should be a bit harder to ferment than glucose, wine yeast seems to do it just fine and without any help from added enzymes.

Maltose is also a disaccharide, but ale and lager yeast are bred to ferment it preferentially, and lager yeast also can ferment maltotriose better than ale yeast. There is some sucrose (and other sugars) in wort, of course, but maltose is the primary sugar.

 

[bernardsmith]

I think the main issue with using wine yeast in a beer (which has sugars to ferment that are mostly maltose and maltotriose) is that wine yeast has been bred to ferment simple sugars- fructose, sucrose, glucose, etc. While sucrose is a disaccharide, so in theory it should be a bit harder to ferment than glucose, wine yeast seems to do it just fine and without any help from added enzymes.

Maltose is also a disaccharide, but ale and lager yeast are bred to ferment it preferentially, and lager yeast also can ferment maltotriose better than ale yeast. There is some sucrose (and other sugars) in wort, of course, but maltose is the primary sugar.

Thanks Yooper, So you think that a wine yeast will perhaps struggle with or be relatively unable to ferment the maltose in the grain without additional help if that is essentially the only available sugar? I guess I am hoping that if there are no other sugars available the yeast will handle the maltose although if there were other sugars they might leave it 'til last ...
I make only small batches (single gallons) at a time, so the $$ loss will not be terrible and I guess the learning experience might offset the time I will spend brewing this batch

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper, So you think that a wine yeast will perhaps struggle with or be relatively unable to ferment the maltose in the grain without additional help if that is essentially the only available sugar? I guess I am hoping that if there are no other sugars available the yeast will handle the maltose although if there were other sugars they might leave it 'til last ...
I make only small batches (single gallons) at a time, so the $$ loss will not be terrible and I guess the learning experience might offset the time I will spend brewing this batch

There are definitely other sugars in wort- sucrose, dextrose, glucose, etc. Maltose is maybe 45-60% of it, and maltotriose is much less, maybe 15-20%.

 

[jahdub]

Lalvin doesn't claim those yeast to be able to ferment maltose, and I don't think they would. You'll end up with a super sweet final product.

There's not really anything stopping you from just pitching some brewer's yeast once you have a stuck fermentation at like 1.040 from just the wine yeast. It wouldn't be ideal, but at least you'll have an opportunity to salvage your product.

 

[progmac]

This podcast might help if you really want to dig into this...
http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/dwnldarchive11-23-08.mp3

Sorry it is an obnoxious BN podcast, but the guest is really good. The content starts around minute 39.

 

[m00ps]

The onky batch that was a complete loss for me was made with wine yeast. I harvested unibroue dregs thinkin it was their main strain. The end beer was severely underattenuated, had more blowoff than anythung id ever seen, amd was just all around awful. I dint think wine yeasts can metabolize the wort sugars correctly.
Dont do it

 

[bernardsmith]

Thanks to everyone who has offered me their opinion. I think I will stick to an ale yeast...

 

[Owly055]

I've used 71B-1122 along with USA-05 successfully. 71B-1122 is about the only wine yeast that is compatible with beer yeasts. The others will take over and suppress or kill off the beer yeasts. There is an article somewhere about this. Due to their different needs in terms of sugars, each are suitable for different fermentations. Wine yeast will impart a somewhat different (subtle) flavor that is noticeable and may be desirable.

I would like to experiment with this more extensively, particularly with very light lagers made with pilsner malt, and mildly hopped with some noble hops like Hallertau. It would be interesting to see what happens as far as flavor in this environment. It's also worth looking at giving the beer yeast a head start..... or giving the wine yeast a head start. Pitch one, and wait until you have a good krausen to pitch the other.

By the end of the year I will have brewed about 43 times just this year. I did my first all grain brew in February. In that time, I've experimented extensively with hops and malts in various combinations, but I have hardly experimented at all with yeasts. This next year, I intend to brew about half as much......... or a batch ever two weeks instead of once a week.... because I'm gaining weight on all this beer. I hope to hone in on what I really like, focusing on getting hop combinations more balanced, and better utilizing their individual character. Several New Zealand varieties have come to the top of my list..... Nelson Sauvin, and Motueka. These in combination could possibly benefit from wine yeast fermentations. I've also developed an affinity for Mosaic, Amarillo, Northern Brewer, Hallertau, and a few others. The very subtle interplay of flavors in something like Mosaic when lightly hopped, might be a good environment for bringing out the flavors of wine yeast. likewise Hallertau or some of the related hops, with a clean bittering hop like Magnum.

I brew 2.5 gallon batches, yielding about 14-16 half liter flip top bottles per brew. I can't see myself brewing larger because I love to experiment and play.



H.W.

 

[bernardsmith]

This podcast might help if you really want to dig into this...
http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/dwnldarchive11-23-08.mp3

Sorry it is an obnoxious BN podcast, but the guest is really good. The content starts around minute 39.

That fellow IS really good. Someone who really understands yeast! I found a source for amalyse AG 300 and so I may in fact back track and pitch my 71B after all.
Thanks Progmac for that source.

 

[Owly055]

That fellow IS really good. Someone who really understands yeast! I found a source for amalyse AG 300 and so I may in fact back track and pitch my 71B after all.
Thanks Progmac for that source.

I wouldn't pitch 71B only.......... You might pitch it early, then a day or two later put in a beer yeast to "clean up", otherwise your attenuation might be poor.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

This thread inspired me to co pitch 71B with USA-05 yesterday. I've done this before with positive results.

The brew

Nelson Red Ice

(named that way due to the temperatures yesterday... I was brewing at -5 F)

2.5 gallon brew
5 pounds 2 row
10 ounces CR75
.25 oz Calypso FWH
1 oz Motueka 5 min
.5 oz Nelson Sauvin 5 min

Note that Nelson and Motueka make a superb combination, and Calypso is a great bittering hop with some excellent flavor contributions (NOT GRAPEFRUIT)

This is a variant on my favorite brew which uses the same amount of Motueka and Nelson, but no Calypso, and uses a different hop schedule. This was designed to emphasize the Motueka and Nelson.

IBU 44
SRM 12.5
OG 1.067

Current Gravity 1.050 only 22 hours since yeast was pitched!!

That's an ABV of 2.25%, and I'm expecting to top out at slightly over 5%
fermentation temp 62F (6 deg above ambient temp)

WOW..... talk about fast fermentation..... It's blasting krausen through the air lock... I don't use a blow off because I seldom have this problem. I've co-pitched before but never with this beer, and never had these kinds of results.

H.W.

 

[Hopperazi]

I've used 71B-1122 along with USA-05 successfully. 71B-1122 is about the only wine yeast that is compatible with beer yeasts. The others will take over and suppress or kill off the beer yeasts. There is an article somewhere about this. Due to their different needs in terms of sugars, each are suitable for different fermentations. Wine yeast will impart a somewhat different (subtle) flavor that is noticeable and may be desirable.

I would like to experiment with this more extensively, particularly with very light lagers made with pilsner malt, and mildly hopped with some noble hops like Hallertau. It would be interesting to see what happens as far as flavor in this environment. It's also worth looking at giving the beer yeast a head start..... or giving the wine yeast a head start. Pitch one, and wait until you have a good krausen to pitch the other.

By the end of the year I will have brewed about 43 times just this year. I did my first all grain brew in February. In that time, I've experimented extensively with hops and malts in various combinations, but I have hardly experimented at all with yeasts. This next year, I intend to brew about half as much......... or a batch ever two weeks instead of once a week.... because I'm gaining weight on all this beer. I hope to hone in on what I really like, focusing on getting hop combinations more balanced, and better utilizing their individual character. Several New Zealand varieties have come to the top of my list..... Nelson Sauvin, and Motueka. These in combination could possibly benefit from wine yeast fermentations. I've also developed an affinity for Mosaic, Amarillo, Northern Brewer, Hallertau, and a few others. The very subtle interplay of flavors in something like Mosaic when lightly hopped, might be a good environment for bringing out the flavors of wine yeast. likewise Hallertau or some of the related hops, with a clean bittering hop like Magnum.

I brew 2.5 gallon batches, yielding about 14-16 half liter flip top bottles per brew. I can't see myself brewing larger because I love to experiment and play.



H.W.

How were the experiments go with wine yeasts, any favorites?

 

[DuncB]

A commercial winery in Kent made an IPA several years ago with a champagne yeast. I was disappointed with the first bottle I tried and the remaining five bottles were no better.
Use an ale yeast.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

A commercial winery in Kent made an IPA several years ago with a champagne yeast. I was disappointed with the first bottle I tried and the remaining five bottles were no better.
Use an ale yeast.

If you're talking about Curious, although they hype up the champagne yeast angle, if you read carefully they say it's "re-fermented with Champagne yeast" - in other words they're not using it for the primary fermentation but just to add bubbles. The reason being that they were founded by the Chapel Down wine company who are best known for their sparkling wine.

There's several problems with using wine yeasts for beer, as mentioned above they tend not to ferment complex sugars, most of them have killer factors that kill off other yeast, and they are mostly POF+ (ie phenolic). Uvaferm/Steinberger 228 is one of the very rare ones that is neither phenolic nor a killer. Some groups see Lalvin V1116 producing phenolics, others don't - see this thread.

 

[DuncB]

@Northern_Brewer
That probably was the brewery.
It was a long time ago and I still carry the disappointment. I've used a champagne yeast in a barley wine for priming and it worked, but as you say due to the other issues it's not good for beer ferments.