TURBO Wort chiller

[Dawai]

My electric kettle is insulated, that is good, keeps the room nice and cool.. BUT.. cooling the wort down after the boil I am having some difficulty. THE insulation holds in the heat while I am trying to cool. I have a 25 foot 3/8" home made copper coil for a wort chiller.

I thought about doing a "tubing" wrap under the insulation and dumping the heat that way, but it will take 100 feet of tubing to do that. It could be copper or?

NOW, my thoughts are a turbo coil chiller.. a chiller with a mixer blade to "stir" the wort around the coils.. I used my mixing spoon to agitate the wort Saturday and it worked great.. but I kept banging the coils.. so.. no cure for klutz.. so I need a mixer connected to the chill coil and drop it all in, a battery drill to spin the mixer so I can vary the speed, perhaps a Cap on the mixer shaft so it does not boil-turn and aerate the surface of the wort.. The drill can go on and off so it does not sit in the steam while I am sterilizing the coils-mixer blade.

Do you have any Helpful Ideas before I start sticking things together?

I have gathered a 3/8" stainless rod for the mixer shaft about 3 feet long. THE prop can be a pair of flat stainless paddles tig welded on. I need to come up with some kind of immersible bearing or guide that will not throw shavings or "funk" into my kettle, perhaps a stainless collar to hold the shaft and guide in place?

 

[Effingbeer]

Wouldn't it be easier to get a 50 ft coil of 1/2 copper coil and make a better chiller?

 

[Dawai]

I've thought of that too.. but.. circulation across the coils would help. Even a larger, longer chill coil would work better with some flow moving.

I noticed some others here "shaking" the coils in the wort to agitate it. (I love youtube)

If I do go to a larger coil, I am going stainless. I had to clean this copper "funk" off twice now. I threatened to powder coat it. That is in effect thou a insulation also and would decrease the heat transfer.

Am I over thinking it? It takes about 20 minutes to cool down.

 

[kombat]

Do you already have a pump? If so, I'd consider just assembling a plate chiller setup. That would avoid all the complicated mechanical challenges you're facing. I love my plate chiller. I use my old copper coil chiller as a "pre-chiller" for the input water into my plate chiller (sitting it in an ice bath in a camping cooler), and I can get 6 gallons of boiling wort down to 65° F in 15-20 minutes (I recirculate the chiller output back into the kettle instead of directly into a fermenter). It drops from boiling down to 160-ish in just a couple of minutes.

 

[BrothOfVigor]

I use a magnetic stir bar in the kettle to increase cooling efficiency of a built-in immersion/HERMS. Works great and you don't have to fuss with a big ol mechanical stirrer.

 

[maida7]

A friend of mine uses a motorized mixer to stir the wort while immersion chilling. His setup cools VERY fast. The copper chiller and stainless mixing blade are built in to the lid of the pot.

I use a pump to make a whirlpool while immersion chilling and that works great for me.

Moving the wort over the coil will make a HUGE difference in your chilling time.

 

[EODstads]

A friend of mine uses a motorized mixer to stir the wort while immersion chilling. His setup cools VERY fast. The copper chiller and stainless mixing blade are built in to the lid of the pot.

I use a pump to make a whirlpool while immersion chilling and that works great for me.

Moving the wort over the coil will make a HUGE difference in your chilling time.

+1 on the whirpool idea....it will also help clean up any non-wort material (hops etc...) that you don't want to transfer to fermentation

 

[Dawai]

A friend of mine uses a motorized mixer to stir the wort while immersion chilling. His setup cools VERY fast. The copper chiller and stainless mixing blade are built in to the lid of the pot.

I use a pump to make a whirlpool while immersion chilling and that works great for me.

Moving the wort over the coil will make a HUGE difference in your chilling time.
maida7 is online now

Yes, a whirlpooling pump would serve two purposes.. one would be the "double boiler" pot I sit into the top of my kettle to mash into.. I have of yet not found a way to get the wort up into it.. even thought about a percolator type stand under it. (typing that in youtube brings up some real nuts) I put a float switch in the lid already.

Kinda embarrassing but I bought a 1/2" line 100C rated pump off ebay.. it fit into my shirt pocket.. you know I caught some "chaFE" from the wife on that.. It was my fault thou and I will use it or eat it.. tiny pump.. like for a coffee pot. Not exactly what I wanted.

 

[Dawai]

I have a stainless chugger pump in my shopping cart that a lot of people here use, I am hesitating cause I was waiting to see if this hobby persists. I dislike brew bags, want to use the double boiler and it will take a pump to make it work.

I think I am going ahead with the slow stir mixer paddle thou, it won't be but a hour or so fabricating. Cost less than $10. I'll post a picture once it is together. THE lid mount is a good idea. I am considering it.

 

[Garyr2973]

Use the copper to make a counterflow chiller. Mine goes from 212 degrees to 80 or cooler as fast as the pump will pump it.

 

[Effingbeer]

I guess I am not going for flash-cooling my wort. My 50' of 1/2" copper IC gets my 12 gallons to 65F in 10-15 minutes and I have been pretty happy with that. I have a plate chiller I use sometimes too and it does go to 70F with no problem. It goes real cold using my IC as a pre-chiller as others have said.

 

[SOB_OCDAVE]

+1 on the CF chiller. I built a 50' CF out of 3/8" copper for about $100 w/ all new parts from a local hardware store. It was a beast to get the hose over the copper, so I had to spray the coil with Pam cooking oil. Then, after I got it zipp tied up it had to hang out on one of my old 7 gal ale pales. It was a fun build and would knock the wort from boiling to about 75 deg. with tap water in s. texas.

 

[brewguyver]

Yes, a whirlpooling pump would serve two purposes.. one would be the "double boiler" pot I sit into the top of my kettle to mash into.. I have of yet not found a way to get the wort up into it.. even thought about a percolator type stand under it. (typing that in youtube brings up some real nuts) I put a float switch in the lid already.

Kinda embarrassing but I bought a 1/2" line 100C rated pump off ebay.. it fit into my shirt pocket.. you know I caught some "chaFE" from the wife on that.. It was my fault thou and I will use it or eat it.. tiny pump.. like for a coffee pot. Not exactly what I wanted.

I know a lot of people use the DC solar pumps, which are about the size of your hand. That little one may work fine, especially if it gets a gravity assist.

+3 for whirlpooling while you chill the IC. I'm probably going to try a cfc as well - have a spare piece of 50' copper, and plate chiller is a PIA.

 

[kombat]

plate chiller is a PIA.

Why do you say that? What issues are you having with your plate chiller?

I have quick disconnects on all my ports and hoses for my plate chiller setup. With 15 minutes left in the boil, I connect the hoses and pump, and circulate StarSan backwards through my plate chiller. Then at knockout, I switch the hoses (to flow forwards instead of backwards) and connect the chiller water hoses. With the quick-disconnect fittings, it makes it all very easy to setup, reconfigure, and dismantle.

 

[Dawai]

Post was turbo chiller, I asked for testing ideas thou, The mixer paddle for a drill will cost little, you could go down to the Lowes and buy a drywall mixer, stick a plate across your chill coil to keep it centered and go to town.. I plan on adding a collar so it won't rub the bottom of my kettle.
I have in the past sat the "stove cook pot" into the sink with ice in it, stood there and stirred the wort with a spoon assuring circulation around the cool metal sides. I just suspected that the mixing paddle in the chill coils would do the same, and it did.. except I kept banging the coil with the stainless spoon, and rupturing a coil with water in it would thin my wort to useless.

I am listening, What I have learned from you guys and experience so far?

(1)Best chiller, one that cleans easily, sterilizes, you can "see inside" to make sure all grain grit, all particles are gone. (none of the above including mine, it has copper wire holding the tube together in spacing) I do not know what the inside of a wort chiller looks like, but a industrial "heat exchanger" has beads, indentations, ripples in the exchanger plates. Those do not clean easily. You must take them apart to clean the plates. Furthermore, the "acid" in star san etches stainless.. does this rough surface hold more contamination?

(2)A reverse flow chiller made from a hose, smoother inside as to not hold contamination but you still can not see mold or funk, or corrosion inside the copper. My chill coils have corroded now twice on the outside, what makes you think they don't on the inside if exposed to a ph modified wort?

(3) Pump. ONE of my newfound HBT buddies.. well.. he likes the idea of the home made peristaltic pump with the roller skate wheels inside.. I made half a dozen of them before on my cnc mill. To rebuild them you just swap out the silicone hose, the roller skate wheels sequentially squeegie out the fluid like milking a cow. You can see contamination inside the clear hose *(build later). I have a chugger pump in the shopping cart at a brew supply.. Hesitating thou, like I did on the brew kettle, the home made chiller, the other things that cost cash money.... I got plenty of time.

Give a obsessive compulsive man a problem, well.. I THINK..
for actual chilling wort on "everyone's" brew stand a folded "gutter" with a smaller "internal gutter" hanging on the back of the stand rack.. the inner larger capacity is cooling water, the outer wort.. slight incline, you can fill and let er run downhill.. the "heat transfer" area of the gutter would equal the plate area on a high dollar wort chiller.
A fill float for each like in a ice machine. (farm supply water trough filler valve) Inner sets out of outer so you can wipe it clean of all debris and build up. Gate valves on both so you can adjust flow.. and DONE..

Other way to do this would be on you "gas kettle guys" would be a water "spray" around the outside of the kettle, a whirlpool circulation pump or mixer moving the wort inside. I don't think I want to try that with my electric kettle thou.. I've lived this long to make as many mistakes as I have by not doing things I knew better. Mixing water and electricity is just bad sometimes. (didja see the water heater element I did in the INSIDE of the 1st test kettle?)

A double walled kettle now.. insulation on the outside of "that" quick heat, quick cooling. No other surface with "funk" growing on it other than the smooth cooking area inside. Them are expensive thou, and a tubing wrapped keg would be still be cheaper for "us" cheapskates.. to stop contamination I refused to insert a heating element into my pot, I refused to insert the temp thermocouple/tap/threads.. to keep the inside of my kettle smooth and easy to clean. Rinse, wipe, rub with soapy scotchbrite pad, rinse and walk off. I welded a rim on it cause I didn't want to abrade my arm. I knew I'd be getting personal with it (like delivering a calf?).

I know in a year it maybe making stew for the homeless people in town, or jelly, or...

I'll add a picture later on today I think.. I can see today good enough to run my plasma cutter and tig weld.. I think.

 

[maida7]

I have a stainless chugger pump in my shopping cart that a lot of people here use, I am hesitating cause I was waiting to see if this hobby persists. I dislike brew bags, want to use the double boiler and it will take a pump to make it work.

I think I am going ahead with the slow stir mixer paddle thou, it won't be but a hour or so fabricating. Cost less than $10. I'll post a picture once it is together. THE lid mount is a good idea. I am considering it.

It's best if you can chill with the lid on to protect the wort from infections.

 

[brewguyver]

Why do you say that? What issues are you having with your plate chiller?

I have quick disconnects on all my ports and hoses for my plate chiller setup. With 15 minutes left in the boil, I connect the hoses and pump, and circulate StarSan backwards through my plate chiller. Then at knockout, I switch the hoses (to flow forwards instead of backwards) and connect the chiller water hoses. With the quick-disconnect fittings, it makes it all very easy to setup, reconfigure, and dismantle.

For reference, we're using a therminator.

- Clogging is the biggest issue - break heavy beers like pumpkin cause issues even with filter bags, so I have to use my IC anyway.
- I also like to whirlpool and to use hot wort through the cooling equipment, which tends to cause clogging problems
- My brewing partner is a neat freak and hates that he can never clean 100% of the break material out of the chiller. Even the sterile baking route makes him pretty unhappy.

I'm sure we could figure it out, but the IC seems to work perfectly for this system. The only negative is that it gets in the way during the whirlpool, so a CFC might be better (and it's easier to flush out).

 

[kombat]

- Clogging is the biggest issue - break heavy beers like pumpkin cause issues even with filter bags, so I have to use my IC anyway.

Interesting, I can see how that might be an issue. Myself, I've never brewed a beer with a lot of chunky material in it, although I have had a few with lots of break and hop material.

As I described in another thread, I have a HopStopper fitted to my kettle's output port, which screens out all hop and break material and prevents it from entering my chiller. However, sometimes it works a little too well and gets so caked over with trub that it actually chokes off the flow leaving the valve port. I've gotten around this issue by using the stainless "hop screen" (the one from Chad that everybody else has too) to contain my hops during the boil, so the HopStopper only has to contend with break material.

- I also like to whirlpool and to use hot wort through the cooling equipment, which tends to cause clogging problems

Again, you could probably get around this with a HopStopper, but it does add an extra element of complication (something else to disassemble, clean, etc.).

- My brewing partner is a neat freak and hates that he can never clean 100% of the break material out of the chiller. Even the sterile baking route makes him pretty unhappy.

Hmm, I've never baked mine, but I've only used it on 10 batches or so. I believe mine is pretty clean. I'm meticulous about cleaning it immediately after I've finished using it to chill wort. I do a multi-step cleaning process, with all of the steps flowing "backwards" through the chiller. I spend about 5 minutes each pumping the following things through it, in this order:

1.Hot water
2.Hot PBW solution
3.Cold water
4.Starsan
5.Cold water

If you have other reasons for whirlpooling, then I guess my method wouldn't work, as I believe the HopStopper would interfere with a whirlpool.

 

[Effingbeer]

Hop blocker definitely impedes whirlpool. I use it, and position my recirculation output so the clear wort flows through the coil at the thing so at least the trub gets pushed away from it. I have had lumps of hops plug up my tubing while recirculating until I figured that out.

The hop rocket also makes a good filter. With an IPA, I turn the pump on until the thing plugs up and most of the free-floating pellet hops get filtered out. Usually chills within 10min.
I have heard of people using rice hulls in a hop sack for lower hopped beers.

I think a good pump is the way to go if you want to speed up chilling and try to whirlpool. For the $$, it is simple, effective, and gives you room to expand your system to new techniques. Did I mention sanitary? Probably why they're so popular.

 

[brewguyver]

Post was turbo chiller, I asked for testing ideas thou, The mixer paddle for a drill will cost little, you could go down to the Lowes and buy a drywall mixer, stick a plate across your chill coil to keep it centered and go to town.. I plan on adding a collar so it won't rub the bottom of my kettle.

Be careful on this one. If you run a drywall/grout mixer and create a vortex at high temp, you're almost guaranteed to get hot side aeration. Although we're talking "whirlpool," it's more of a circulation and not a vortex.

 

[Dawai]

create a vortex at high temp, you're almost guaranteed to get hot side aeration. Although we're talking "whirlpool," it's more of a circulation and not a vortex.

Slow and easy. I have 72 rpm stepper-synchronous motors I was going to use as a jelly stirrer. As you make jelly, it congeals-thickens on the bottom where it contacts the hottest part of the pot, this must happen, but you must stir it slowly to stop it from burning.
My plan was a small mixer with near flat blades, not a boat prop.

You guys get me so confused some times. I have about 25 gallons of beer made up, it maybe weeks before I need to cook again. One batch would be great to remove paint thou, the bottled carbolic taste is horrid. Swirl the glass and dump the foam and it is better.

I had someone last night asking me if my kettle could "boil and reduce" perfume and extracts. I told them "no" it can not hold vapor pressure like a still or cooker. That maybe the next model here.

 

[Rivenin]

the way i do it for my stuff... all my insulation is removable. i was taking it off at the end of the boil for chilling... which is why it's hanging, but gives you an idea

 

[Mozart]

Ok, complete newb here, so forgive me if I am completely off base. In fact, my set-up is really simple as I'm a new brewer with limited space, but that said....

There's one thing that struck me last time I went to cool my wort.

Why not cool *just* the wort? Why cool the kettle as well?

For me, that meant pouring my wort over sanitized ice I'd made the day before, right in my fermenting bucket.

I understand this particular method won't work for everyone for a variety of reasons, but, is it possible to transfer the wort out of the insulated electric kettle and into some other vessel for cooling?

This would seem to solve the insulation problem, and also leave a lot of the heat behind in the original vessel making cooling faster and easier.

Again, just a newb, so if I'm way off base, that's ok. Just thought I'd give it a shot.

 

[ThatGeekGuy]

You may want to investigate the whirlpool immersion chiller idea, this is a good starting point:
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

Faster cooling and helps minimize trub into the fermenter.

 

[Dawai]

Rivenin

the way i do it for my stuff... all my insulation is removable. i was taking it off at the end of the boil for chilling... which is why it's hanging, but gives you an idea

Next version here will too, (see picture) that is velcro that snaps the insulation on in 10 seconds, it is very hot then and must be handled carefully. Barely gets warm on the outside thou. What I like is the room stays cool. (and me)

Problem.. well when I wrap the "chill tubing" or the "heating tubing" around the keg, it gets larger in diameter.. I'll need a larger wrap.

(Why I am here learning) Also, since I am still "learning" I don't want to create something "not suitable at all for brewing".. I sent "three homebuilt english wheels" out of here before I found one that "met all the unforeseen engineering requirements" of a "wonderful metal shaping wheel". I rewired my cnc bridgeport twice, had the front end off my 57 gmc now 12 times.. motor in-out enough to call it sex. I sometimes think the tinkering-learning new things is almost as much fun as doing.

I've been screwing up enough doing it the "proven way" by others as I learn. As with the cnc machine, I was not a machinist, I should have "learned the manual way first". A computer just complicates things. I still adore the 1951 Leblond lathe. ALL MANUAL< ALL OLD< still cutting parts.

1st kettle, 2nd redo is making good beer now thanks to this group. My only source of information. I've not been bored. I've learned a lot and I thank all of you.

OLD ALE JAY and I talked about a kettle, sealed top, mash tun, convert to boil kettle, chill, snap the lid on and ferment. ONE pot deal.. I think that is still a long way off. The idea model would have dispensing taps to carry it on into the keezer. That would reduce the clean up and investment of time per brew.

 

[Dawai]

Yeah, sat my beard on fire again.

I cut a cardboard pattern of what I wanted, laid it on the stainless, traced it withe the plasma cutter, drilled a hole in center (burned up dull bit) then tig welded it to the stainless shaft. The shaft is entirely too long, on purpose.. I needed 18" to get up to the rim of the cooker, I wanted more so I could also stir other things with this rig.

Turned a rigid aluminium coupling, threaded 3/8x24 one end, cross drilled for 1/4" set screw the other end, (center drill was sharper on one side, wandered off course).. and then..

MOTORS, are a 72 rpm 120 volt motor, can "stall" without creating damage to the motor, just stutters.. actually a stepping motor (fixed coil, magnets on armature) that the coils run on the 60 cycle phase, required externally is a capacitor and resistor to "phase shift" delay one wave and feed it to the other windings to provide the secondary steps. Actually a lot simpler than it sounds.

These will be used in the roller skate peristaltic pumps, again.. since you can't hardly hurt them..

to put the minor pitch in the prop. I held it at a angle over my metalshaping stump and whacked it with a hammer, setting "about the same pitch in both sides".. It ain't rocket science.

Cheers friends, I got to make a bushing-plate to put on the cooling coil.. then try it out.. Not today, I started tig welding-melting and my welds falling out on my feet, could not see..

 

[Hang Glider]

perhaps an inexpensive set up -
I'm reading this and thinking "Hmmm I've got to do this!!"

I propose an electric ice cream maker - the "dasher" would be replaced with a shaft and a flat-blade propeller. Speed is enough to move the wort across the coils, but not create a vortex. the motor certainly is removable, with the square drive...

okay, I've got a new project, thanks!

 

[Horseflesh]

I've spent a few minutes looking for some kind of cheap overhead stirrer gadget but everything I have found is heavy duty, like for construction or lab use, and priced accordingly.

If anyone finds the the right kind of motor and stirring element cheap, please post.

A submersible, sanitizable, heat tolerant pump would work too--anything to add a gentle whirlpool effect to the wort, so I don't have to do it with a spoon...

 

[kombat]

This really sounds like an awful lot of effort just to avoid buying a $100 plate chiller.

 

[AnOldUR]

I've found that taking the insulation off my boil kettle doesn't make that much difference in chill time. It's the IC drawing out the heat, not the sides of the pot. Constant stirring makes the big difference in getting it done faster.

 

[Horseflesh]

That's very helpful, thanks!

kombat, that $100 plate chiller needs a $150 pump too, and it all needs to get cleaned.

 

[dyqik]

Or you could get one of the $20 chinese made 12V pumps off of eBay to whirlpool with if you aren't ready to spend money on a higher capacity chugger or similar. With a power supply, hoses and fittings, you shouldn't need to pay more than about $35, and it can also be used for moving hot liquor or mash running about.

 

[Horseflesh]

A $20 pump would be interesting if you have a link to one you know is good.

I'm just making the transition to AG and getting by with a gravity system. In general I hate and mistrust plumbing so I have been reluctant to rely on pumps for anything.

 

[kombat]

That's very helpful, thanks!

kombat, that $100 plate chiller needs a $150 pump too, and it all needs to get cleaned.

I'm just using a little $50 pump (from GreatBrewEh), but your point is valid, a plate chiller is much more effective with a pump. As for the cleaning, I just let the pump run the various cleaning solutions through the chiller (hot water, hot PBW, cold water, StarSan, then finally cold water again) for 5 minutes each while I'm doing other cleanup and packing tasks.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

A $20 pump would be interesting if you have a link to one you know is good.

I'm just making the transition to AG and getting by with a gravity system. In general I hate and mistrust plumbing so I have been reluctant to rely on pumps for anything.

Look up the P-38I on Ebay...

 

[Dawai]

Horse flesh...

PM- send me your address and I can calculate one of these extra 72 rpm motors shipping to you.. From 30755, Ga..

if you need me to "find the capacitor and resistor" Those would have to be new probably.. my rathole of them has diminished.

A rigid coupling from use-enco.com machinist supplies, a shaft and a couple of blades and you are in business. My poor eyesight and my wore out tools on my lathe it didn't turn out perfect.. it runs.. but wobbles a bit..

I don't think you are going to find a better deal than that.

 

[Horseflesh]

That's very kind of you, thanks! PM on the way. And use-enco.com is awesome! I searched for "rigid coupler" and easily found the sort of part that I knew had to exist, but didn't know how to describe until just now...

 

[dyqik]

A $20 pump would be interesting if you have a link to one you know is good.

I'm just making the transition to AG and getting by with a gravity system. In general I hate and mistrust plumbing so I have been reluctant to rely on pumps for anything.

This is the one I've bought (but not hooked up yet, although fittings are in place) after reading conversations on here. It's a P38-I as mentioned in the other post.

I've been using a CFC or immersion chiller and gravity so far - the pump is only going to be for lifting water from the kettle to the HLT and for circulating to cool through the CFC, either of which I can work around if necessary, although it does involve lifting 6 gallons of boiling or hot water to 5 foot off the ground.