Trouble getting a weiss right please help

[Sean_SA]

Hi guys

I'm having trouble lately with getting my weiss right. The strange thing is the first two batches I ever brewed of weiss came out great but were just a little too dry. I used wb-06 for those. Those batches were 15L batches.The subsequent 2 batches after that, each 25L have not turned out so well.

For the 3rd batch I used a locally cultured yeast which they claim is very similar to wyeast 3068. I fermented at 21C and I got huge banana and bubblegum, no clove. Even a bit of apple. Didnt like it.

The 4th batch I used Lallemand Munich classic. I pitched one sachet into a 25L wort and fermented at 18C. Again, a lot of banana and fruityness and no clove. Its not bad but not what Im aiming for.

What Ive realised is that I favour clove more in my weiss but would like a hint of banana. Or a balance of the two. As I fermented at 18C Im a little surprised with the amount of banana and lack of clove.

Could I be underpitching too much for a 25L wort? What could I be doing wrong?

Grain bill:
55% wheat
36% Pilsner
7% Carahell
2% Caraamber

 

[Miraculix]

Hi!

First of all it is called either Weissbier, or Hefe, or Hefeweizen or Weizen or Weizenbier. Plenty of words to choose from but the word weiss or hef is not included. Sorry, but I'm German and this bothers me

Ok, now that we got the formalities out of the way, please read the following article. It should cover nearly every question you may have, including the one about the clove (which I can fully understand, I also prefer the wheat beers that have more clove than banana).

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/
Wb06 is actually not a German wheat beer yeast, but more of a saison/Witt type of yeast, classic mislabeling by the company. A real hefeweizen yeast is hard to find dry, but Munich classic actually is one of those. I heard that mauri brew also has a real one.

Good luck with your next one, I'll bet it's going to be closer to what you are looking for!

 

[ebbelwoi]

You'll find this information in the link mentioned above, but I might as well point out that a ferulic acid rest around 45C should help you get some clove.

 

[Vale71]

Probably not what you want to hear but with Weissbier and Belgians there is really no replacement for liquid yeast. Dry yeast for these styles always gives results that can be best described as "meh...".

 

[Sean_SA]

First of all it is called either Weissbier, or Hefe, or Hefeweizen or Weizen or Weizenbier. Plenty of words to choose from but the word weiss or hef is not included. Sorry, but I'm German and this bothers me

Sorry about that and duly noted. A few craft breweries here in South Africa are guilty of calling it a "Weiss" so it's lead to a bad habit on my part... the one brewery here that calls it a weiss has a german as the headbrewer so that's a bit odd.

Wb06 is actually not a German wheat beer yeast, but more of a saison/Witt type of yeast, classic mislabeling by the company. A real hefeweizen yeast is hard to find dry, but Munich classic actually is one of those. I heard that mauri brew also has a real one

Ive read up a lot on wb-06 not being an authentic weissbier yeast and thats one of the few reasons I wanted to move away from it. When I say it produced good results I mean the beer tasted good but I do agree that it doesnt produce a proper weissbier....

Unfortunately not a single homebrew store here stocks a liquid yeast such as wyeast or one of the good international brands. Its all dry and there is a local company who sells liquid yeast and it was their yeast I tried on my 3rd batch and got hectic banana and bubblegum

Im going to stick with munich classic for now and have a read through the link you sent me. Thanks for that!

 

[Sean_SA]

Probably not what you want to hear but with Weissbier and Belgians there is really no replacement for liquid yeast. Dry yeast for these styles always gives results that can be best described as "meh...".

Its a sad reality Ive had to accept but we have no access to liquid yeasts for wheat beers in South Africa

 

[jschein]

Get some Weissbier and grow a starter from the dregs

 

[ebbelwoi]

It might give you some confidence to know that Lallemand Munich Classic is the strain used by Andechs in their Weissbier Hell.

 

[Miraculix]

Get some Weissbier and grow a starter from the dregs

Yes, that's a good idea. Just make sure that they don't use a bottle conditioning yeast, otherwise you'll get just the conditioning yeast. I think Schneider's Weisse should be good to harvest! It's also my favourite Weissbier and quite on the clovey side

 

[ebbelwoi]

Harvesting yeast from a commercial bottle can be tricky. If you live in Germany, great, you can pick up a few fresh bottles of Schneider Weisse, put the yeast and some starter wort in a flask, on a stir plate. If you live on a different continent, it might not be easy to find fresh bottles. Most of the German hefeweizen that is exported (Paulaner, Weihenstephaner, Franziskaner, etc.) is not suitable for harvesting, even if you can find it relatively fresh, due to pasteurizing, yeast substitution, or both. Investing in a flask and a stir plate might not be worthwhile, unless you have a reliable source of fresh yeast. If there's a hefeweizen you like that's made locally, it might be worth a shot, if you make a lot of hefeweizen.

 

[Vale71]

It might give you some confidence to know that Lallemand Munich Classic is the strain used by Andechs in their Weissbier Hell.

Even if that unconfirmed rumour were by chance true I'm pretty sure Andechs does not use the dry form so any comparison would still be meaningless.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Even if that unconfirmed rumour were by chance true

A Lallemand sales rep told me in an email that it was the Andechs strain.

 

[Vale71]

And you believe what salespersons tell you?
Even if you had found the only truthful and honest salesperson in the whole world the same strain subjected to the drying process will give a completely different profile.

 

[bwible]

I’ve used Wyeast 3068 a bunch of times and I found that the beers I made had the different spice flavors mentioned here at different temperatures. I find it produces more clove when fermented on the low end of the temp range and more of the bananna when fermented on the higher end of the range. I actually like the fruiter ones with balance more toward bananna than clove.

21C is about 69F. Wyeast lists the temp range for 3068 as 64F to 75F. Do you have any way to try to reduce the temp a few more degrees and try the yeast you have again? Remember that beer generates a little heat internally during fermentation so if you measure 69F it could be as much as 5 degrees warmer inside the beer.

I still contend the best wheat beer I ever made (or at least the one I liked the best) was fermented in a plastic pail fermenter during the summer many years ago where I didn’t have AC at the time and it must have gotten to 95 degrees during the day where that was fermenting. I only use wheat DME when I brew wheat beers. I do not mash wheat. To me, the convenience of the wheat extract is well worth the extra cost for that beer.

I’ve only used the 3056 once or twice and I remember that yeast being much more toward clove balance.

 

[bwible]

Unfortunately not a single homebrew store here stocks a liquid yeast such as wyeast or one of the good international brands.

Do you have any “local” breweries or microbreweries? If so you can ask them for help. Often times the local commercial brewers are friendly toward home brewers and might be able to help you out. Whether they have some of the yeast they could give you or they have resources you don’t to be able to acquire it for you.

Just a thought

 

[Joggin]

I really like this philosophy and I hope to get there at some point once I have made some I really like. Im sure after many brews I will get to the point where I just throw the stuff together but Im still learning and need to follow recipes and document for now.

It might give you some confidence to know that Lallemand Munich Classic is the strain used by Andechs in their Weissbier Hell.

I used Lallemand Munich Classic for a couple Hefe's over the summer fermenting high 60s. They were good, but I would prefer more banana.
3068 is better for banana I believe.
But made 3 different batches of a Weizenbock recently using Lallemand Munich Classic and it is a great yeast for that style. Lots of complex flavors.

 

[Sean_SA]

21C is about 69F. Wyeast lists the temp range for 3068 as 64F to 75F. Do you have any way to try to reduce the temp a few more degrees and try the yeast you have again? Remember that beer generates a little heat internally during fermentation so if you measure 69F it could be as much as 5 degrees warmer inside the beer.

I had a glass of the beer again yesterday and I picked up a distinct boozey smell from it, like rubbing alcohol. It actually becomes quite noticeable and has that warming effect on the nostrils. I had the same issue when I tried our local variant of 3068. The beer's ABV is 5.3% so the only conclusion I can draw is that it's fusels... is that a possibility? It could mean that I'm definitely fermenting too high and need to dial in my temp control better.... or it could be underpitching

I tape my temp probe to the fermenter, then tape a few layers of tissue on that and then tape some bubblewrap over that. I will say that the fermenter has quite a thick plastic wall so it's possibly not giving an accurate reading. I haven't been able to find a thermowell as yet. The temp controller is calibrated though.

 

[Sean_SA]

Do you have any “local” breweries or microbreweries? If so you can ask them for help. Often times the local commercial brewers are friendly toward home brewers and might be able to help you out. Whether they have some of the yeast they could give you or they have resources you don’t to be able to acquire it for you.

Just a thought

Unfortunately not. There is one quite close but I hate their weiss lol

 

[LokiM4]

Unfortunately not. There is one quite close but I hate their weiss lol

They may still be using good yeast and just making a recipe or hopping it such that you do not like it. If they’re the only close option it may be worth a shot to check and ask what yeast they use and see if they would source some or give/sell you some of theirs.

 

[dmaxweb]

A bit off the topic of yeast. Is there a consensus on the water profile for a Scheiders Aventinus weizenbock clone?