Decoction, sort of

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reinstone

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If I am simply trying to replicate the flavor produced by decoction....could I mash till conversion in a batch sparge and drain off some wort until the mash is thicker. Boil the rest of the mash and then lauter...then do the second batch sparge?

What problems could come from this? Thanks
 
The pH may be out of whack, unless you lowered it by some means; tannin extraction..... Also, once you boil up the mash, starch stuck in the husk will burst. The excess starch won't be converted, enzymes may be lautered out in the method you are proposing. The starch will end up in the bottle. You'd probably be better off taking the mash liquid with a slight amount of mash and boil it up and return it to the lauter tun to reach a mash out temp.. Then do the toilet braid batch sparge. Achieving the flavor profile developed by a decoction, starts out in the decoction kettle, early in the process. The final decoction is usually for mash out.
 
The pH may be out of whack, unless you lowered it by some means; tannin extraction..... Also, once you boil up the mash, starch stuck in the husk will burst. The excess starch won't be converted, enzymes may be lautered out in the method you are proposing. The starch will end up in the bottle. You'd probably be better off taking the mash liquid with a slight amount of mash and boil it up and return it to the lauter tun to reach a mash out temp.. Then do the toilet braid batch sparge. Achieving the flavor profile developed by a decoction, starts out in the decoction kettle, early in the process. The final decoction is usually for mash out.

I've done thick mash-out decoctions before and have always gone from starch negative (iodine test) to starch positive after returning the thick decoction to the mash tun. Since enyzmes are still in the liquid left behind in the mash tun, and conversion happens quickly >160F, a 10 minute wait (and purposely not reaching mashout temperature for batch sparging) fixes the starch issue.
 
There is Kai's alternative on decoction I heard on BB podcast.
Principle is similar but you 1st do the decoction and then mash the rest, in short:
1/2 of total malt is added to the 1/3 of total water, mash it and boil for 20-30 minutes.
After that add the rest of the water to get 154F, dough in remaining malt and continue with mashing until positive iodine test.

I am thinking to try this for a while, but whenever I choose decoction I pull the trigger and do traditional decoction.
 
"I've done thick mash-out decoctions before and have always gone from starch negative (iodine test) to starch positive after returning the thick decoction to the mash tun. Since enyzmes are still in the liquid left behind in the mash tun, and conversion happens quickly >160F, a 10 minute wait (and purposely not reaching mashout temperature for batch sparging) fixes the starch issue."

Read the OP's process and what he is asking... You may have mash out confused with a decoction that is used to hit a rest temp, like a conversion temp. Of course, you would pull a thicker mash and boil it in order to hit the conversion temp. That's part of the process in a decoction. Mash out is done to denature the enzymes and loosen up the extract. The mash out decoction is usually pulled after conversion and returned back to the mash tun to raise the mash temp to 168-170F. Most of the mash liquid is pulled for the mash out decoction. If you read what the OP wrote, you will notice that he said he was boiling after conversion. Also, whether you believe it or not. Anytime mash is boiled, starch bursts. That's a part of the decoction that gives the enzymes in the mash liquid more to work with.... Decoctions are generally fly sparged. Batch sparging, somewhat, defeats the purpose of a grain bed filter. The grain bed from a decoction settles differently than that of an infusion. An infusion bed floats, due to entrapped air in the husk. Boiling during a decoction boils out the entrapped air. Allowing an even filter bed to form, that catches the protein mud on top of the bed. Hence, a cleaner run off. Protein mud and unconverted starch in solution are washed through the toilet braid in a batch sparge, when the bed is stirred up.
 
"I've done thick mash-out decoctions before and have always gone from starch negative (iodine test) to starch positive after returning the thick decoction to the mash tun. Since enyzmes are still in the liquid left behind in the mash tun, and conversion happens quickly >160F, a 10 minute wait (and purposely not reaching mashout temperature for batch sparging) fixes the starch issue."

Read the OP's process and what he is asking... You may have mash out confused with a decoction that is used to hit a rest temp, like a conversion temp. Of course, you would pull a thicker mash and boil it in order to hit the conversion temp. That's part of the process in a decoction. Mash out is done to denature the enzymes and loosen up the extract. The mash out decoction is usually pulled after conversion and returned back to the mash tun to raise the mash temp to 168-170F. Most of the mash liquid is pulled for the mash out decoction. If you read what the OP wrote, you will notice that he said he was boiling after conversion. Also, whether you believe it or not. Anytime mash is boiled, starch bursts. That's a part of the decoction that gives the enzymes in the mash liquid more to work with.... Decoctions are generally fly sparged. Batch sparging, somewhat, defeats the purpose of a grain bed filter. The grain bed from a decoction settles differently than that of an infusion. An infusion bed floats, due to entrapped air in the husk. Boiling during a decoction boils out the entrapped air. Allowing an even filter bed to form, that catches the protein mud on top of the bed. Hence, a cleaner run off. Protein mud and unconverted starch in solution are washed through the toilet braid in a batch sparge, when the bed is stirred up.

The OP wants to know if you can boil all the grain and some liquid after complete conversion. The process he described will leave starches unless the runnings with the enzymes are added back to the boiled portion and he's still at <168F-170F.

I think the misunderstanding is that I used the word mashout. A thin decoction to mashout (168F-170F) makes a lot of sense because you don’t want more starch. Most likely you've already completed 1 or 2 thick decoction steps and the thin decoction can be heated more rapidly.

I’ve done a step from saccrification temperature (wait 60-90 min for complete conversion) to a higher temperature (< 168F-170F) by boiling some of the first runnings (thin) or boiling some of the runnings with grain (thick) for 20-30 minutes and putting that back into the mash tun. Starches burst in the boil (verified by iodine test), but there are still enzymes active when the starchy wort is returned to the mash tun and convert quickly (verified by iodine test).

I've used this method on Hefeweizen, Dunkel, Dubbel, Tripel, Quad - and all have been nice beers. I'm not sure if this step contributed anything.

This is another interesting thread:
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10429
 
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