Brooklyn Sorachi Ace Extract clone questions

[brewpood]

Confession: I'm a new brewer, but I think this question belongs here. My apologies in advance if I am in the wrong forum. Here goes:

I'm getting ready to brew a clone of Brooklyn Sorachi Ace using the extract recipe from BYO magazine, Dec. 2011; I'll paste the recipe below. The recipe doesn't mention it, but the Brooklyn web site says that they use champagne yeast in secondary for this brew. I have a packet of dry champagne yeast that I just picked up from my HBS. I'm thinking of leaving it in secondary for about two weeks after adding (or not adding) the champagne yeast.

First question: If I add the yeast to secondary when the time comes, what do I need to be aware of? Do I need to use special bottles, or would my usual brown 12 oz work? Do I need to feed the champagne yeast? Anything else?

Second question: I also need to dry hop. If I add the champagne yeast, do you have any thoughts about how I should do the dry hopping?

I'll paste the recipe below. Thanks for any insight!

Sorachi Ace Extract Clone, BYO magazine, Dec. 2011
2 # Pilsner malt
2# Pilsner DME
4# Pilsner LME ***corrected amount (was erroneously 2# LME)****
1.0 corn sugar
.5 oz 12% Sorachi Ace hops at 60 min
.5 oz 12% Sorachi Ace hops at 30 min
5 oz 12% Sorachi Ace hops at 0 min
2.0 oz 12% Sorachi Ace hops, dry hop
Wyeast 1214 or White Labs WLP500

Steep grains at 148 F for 60 min. Boil for 60 min, adding hops at times indicated. Add LME and sugar late in boil (presumably also DME).

 

[mforsman]

From what I can tell they add in the champaign yeast as it's going into the bottles since that brew is bottle conditioned. It's something that really only a true production brewery can do easily and repeat over and over. They filter out their primary yeast.

 

[SpeedYellow]

+1. I definitely wouldn't bother with the champagne yeast unless you're sure the primary strain won't carbonate properly. Even then, it may take some experimentation to perfect it. Do some searching here if you do this.

Thanks for the recipe tip - I've been wanting to clone Brooklyn's SA. This beer is ALL about proper yeast selection, so hopefully BYO put adequate thought into that. Get the yeast wrong and it won't taste even close. The beer retains a lot of sweetness and mouthfeel, and a highly attenuating yeast would miss that.

 

[motorneuron]

Yeah, just going to agree with the posters above--there's no reason to use champagne yeast in your homebrew version.

As for dry hopping, the usual procedure there is to let your fermentation calm down (that is, visible activity is over), and then either add hops directly to the fermentor or put them in a nylon bag that you let steep in there. Either way, a typical dry hop duration is between one and seven days. Longer duration might extract more aroma, but also might risk imparting a vegetal, celery kind of flavor; people disagree about that. (If you were going to add champagne yeast, you'd do that at bottling time, so it would be after the dry hop was complete.)

I really like the Brooklyn Sorachi Ace. Let us know how your version turns out!

 

[snowveil]

Keep in mind this beer is HEAVILY carbonated, so if you're planning to replicate that feature of it you won't want to use standard 12oz bottles. If you can get your hand on some stronger bottles (size is irrelevant, use what you can get) then you'll be safe carbing to a higher volume.

 

[Schumed]

I've made the all grain version of this with Belle Saison yeast...it was awesome and I've gotten a few medals for it too

Can't speak for the champagne yeast but like others have said its really more for carbonation purposes....I kegged this beer carbonated to the level I wanted then used the we need no stinking beer gun method to bottle

 

[brewpood]

Thanks for the help! I am sorry to say I have to correct my recipe. That should be 4# LME. I will correct above when I'm not using the mobile app and can edit. So sorry!

 

[brewpood]

OK, I still find I'm of two minds about whether to include the champagne yeast.

If I do use champagne yeast, I'm considering making a starter, and then adding it to primary. That would be about 1 1/2-2 weeks after primary started.

I am thinking of adding it to primary for two reasons. First, my secondary carboy is only 5 gallons, so I worry that I wouldn't have enough head space there for active fermentation. Second, I worry that adding it to the bottling bucket will lead to bottle bombs. I think I probably need to use heavy-duty bottles regardless of whether I go with the champagne yeast, but I'm wondering if even heavy-duty bottles could explode with a dose of champagne yeast at bottling.

Or I could just take some of the advice here and skip the champagne yeast, rack to secondary in another week, and get my next batch going.

What do you think?

Thanks!

 

[SpeedYellow]

Whoa, back up. The BYo article says Brooklyn uses champagne yeast in secondary, and now you're talking about using it for your PRIMARY yeast (bad idea!!) or only at bottling (possibly very bad idea!)? First off, what is the stated reason for using champagne yeast at all? Just to dry out the beer a bit in secondary? That seems legit, but OTOH a sort-of sweet highly-hopped Saison/Belgian is a very nice thing.

Bottom line, if you use champagne yeast, wait until primary is done, and definitely give it several days to ferment out before bottling.

 

[brewpood]

Thanks! Just to be sure we're on the same page, and my apologies if you already understood this, but I didn't mean that I would use the champagne as the only, primary yeast. I was wondering about pitching it in the primary bucket, where the Wyeast 1214 will hopefully have done most of the work of fermenting in a few days. OK, so I take it that that is a bad idea. Let's say I move to secondary and then pitch the champagne yeast. My secondary is just a 5 gallon carboy. Will I pitch and wish I had gotten a bigger secondary vessel because I'll have probably have a blow-out, or does this seem OK?

Many thanks for your advice and patience!

P.S. Your point is well taken about a slightly sweet, hoppy Saison/Belgian being very nice. If this batch turns out well, I'm sure I'll be tinkering with the recipe in different ways for a long time to come. Fingers crossed!

 

[SpeedYellow]

Oh, ok. Pitching champagne yeast into the primary after primary ferm is over is no different from pitching it into secondary. I see no distinction there; you've merely moved it to a different vessel.

Last time I had Brooklyn's SA, I thought it was kind of sweet, so I'm surprised they used a champagne yeast on it. Kind of reminded me of Hitachino Nest's SA, which is also sweet. And amazing, too!

 

[phuff7129]

There is no need to add champagne yeast in primary, secondary or the bottling bucket. The yeasts in your recipe will ferment the beer nicely with plenty of yeast left to carb your beer to any level you want. What problem are you trying to solve?

 

[brewpood]

Excellent question! I think I don't have a problem that needs solving, actually, just as I think you suspect. I have champagne yeast in mind because it's in the original recipe, so I am drawn towards using it just to see what happens. The champagne yeast might dry it out in interesting ways. I hope it wouldn't ruin it. But it is unnecessary, I think you're right.

I took a gravity reading last night. It was down to the target FG of 1.008. It does taste a little sweet, lots of banana, and it has a pretty complex flavor profile. The flaws are maybe some green bitterness that I hope will disappear eventually with bottle conditioning, and I think it might be a little hot (alcohol). I'll taste again when I take another gravity reading. Overall, it made me smile, and I still need to rack it to secondary and dry hop it.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Well if you're already down to 1.008, then champagne yeast seems pretty pointless. You really have to understand the context for why somebody called for this. If you're using a different yeast (which you almost certainly are) then that advice is meaningless on its own. What is the desired FG? Are you there?

 

[brewpood]

Yep, 1.008 is the target final gravity, so this may be as far as I can go. The description of the beer given with the recipe says that its "very complete attenuation gives refreshing, flinty dryness." That quality is what I have been guessing the champagne yeast would provide, but maybe I'm just wrong?

 

[motorneuron]

Champagne yeast is very alcohol-tolerant, so it's good for carbonating some highly alcoholic beers when you pitch it at bottling time. But it does not help dry most beers out further than ale yeast on its own. That's because champagne yeast metabolizes a more limited set of sugars than ale yeast--it won't eat maltose, notably.

 

[brewpood]

OK, no champagne yeast--you've convinced me. Thanks, all!

 

[brewpood]

A new question: How do I know when it's time to move this puppy out of the secondary fermenter and into bottles? Is there some rule of thumb? Thanks!

 

[motorneuron]

Have you already dry hopped? Dry hopping requires usually a few days of contact between the beer and the hops. Leaving it on too long might produce vegetable/celery/grass kinds of flavors, so it may be time to bottle. But the key is of course to taste the beer. If it's good, but flat, then bottle it.

 

[brewpood]

Ah! Tasting is the key--good! I can do that. No, I haven't dry hopped yet because I knew I'd want to be able to bottle soon after I got that going, for fear of the flavors you describe. Do you gauge the length of time for dry hopping the same way--by tasting to see if it suits you?

Many thanks!

 

[motorneuron]

A rule of thumb for dry hopping is that you want the hops in there between about three and seven days. Unfortunately there seems to be no consensus about how long the best dry hop duration is. I have gotten celery flavors from heavily-dry-hopped beers, so I guess I would personally go more for the 3-day end of the spectrum.

 

[brewpood]

Thanks! An update: I started dry hopping with Sorachi Ace flowers 3 days ago and tasted a sample last night, day 2. Most peculiar flavors--pronounced banana and the beginnings of the dry hop flavor that I struggle to find words to describe. Grass, I guess. Well, I will leave it in another day or so and hope it calms down and chills out with some more time, bottle conditioning, and refrigeration. Wish me luck!

 

[brewpood]

Oh, I had a bit of a messy time getting the hop flowers in the carboy. Any suggestions for next time? Thanks!

 

[phuff7129]

Oh, I had a bit of a messy time getting the hop flowers in the carboy. Any suggestions for next time? Thanks!

Leaf hops in the carboy are a b---ch! I bag my dry hops and I never use a carboy anymore. I primary and dry hop in the primary bucket. Drop the bag in and 7 days later take the bag put. So much easier to get the hops in and out. They say leaf hops are better for dry hopping but I have used leaf and pellets and see no difference.

 

[brewpood]

Flavor is much improved after conditioning for a while. Next time I will use a yeast starter and only one kind of grain, but it's tasty. Thanks!