Tripel Fermentation

[jtp137]

In the past i have had trouble with getting yeast flavor from my belgians. After doing some research and talking to more advanced brewers than I I have come to the conclusion that i need a fast and strong primary fermentation. This is what i plan to do this weekend with my tripel. Simple receipe 1.077 og 1.009 fg

Pitch rate using mr malty
Oxygenate using stone for 2 minutes
Pitch at 62 degrees place carboy in chamber with ambiant temp of 70 degrees
Let yeast temp rise naturally when reaches 1.010 rack to secondary
Secondary at 50 degrees for a month

Does anyone see any thing that i need to change in this process. The only problem that i have with my belgians is that they are too clean. I want those in your face esters you get with a St Feullien Tripel or a Westmalle.

I want to also mention that i am thinking about trying open fermentation. I have a 25 gallon stock pot that can fit in my chamber. I know that open fermentation in a shallow fermenter will give me more esters as well

 

[Hopper5000]

I have made one Tripel before and some other Belgian beers. I usually (generally with all ale's) pitch in the high 70's and then let the beer cool down over the next couple of hours. This usually helps the yeast take off more quickly.

With the Tripel I pitched like above and then when cooled kept it at the lower end of the yeasts temp spectrum for a couple of days and then raised it up to the mid 70's over a few days. Mine turned out pretty well although it didn't have that classic honey flavor.

Generally I have seen people start it on the lower end of the yeast spectrum and then raise it 2 degrees each day until the mid 70's are hit. You could also purposely under pitch by like 20% or so and that will stress the yeast out and give you a more estery quality, although you potentially risk not getting full attenuation.

 

[g-star]

I've had good luck pitching a healthy starter of WLP530 at 64F and letting it rise to 72F, holding it there through high krausen, then ramping slowly to 75F until FG. O2 is important.

 

[ACbrewer]

I've read that a 2nd hit of O2 is strongly recomended at the 12 hour mark for 1.080+ beers, maybe a hit of O2 would help here about 12 hours ferment begins?

 

[jtp137]

I have made one Tripel before and some other Belgian beers. I usually (generally with all ale's) pitch in the high 70's and then let the beer cool down over the next couple of hours. This usually helps the yeast take off more quickly.

With the Tripel I pitched like above and then when cooled kept it at the lower end of the yeasts temp spectrum for a couple of days and then raised it up to the mid 70's over a few days. Mine turned out pretty well although it didn't have that classic honey flavor.

Generally I have seen people start it on the lower end of the yeast spectrum and then raise it 2 degrees each day until the mid 70's are hit. You could also purposely under pitch by like 20% or so and that will stress the yeast out and give you a more estery quality, although you potentially risk not getting full attenuation.

I tried under pitching with no luck. I think the long lag time isn't good. From what i gathered the belgians pitch yeast with high viability that how they can get away with the low pitch

 

[Vman]

I did something recently that will become a standard part of my brewing. I pitched two tablespoons of bread yeast into the wort with about 5-10 mins left in the boil. That killed the yeast, but left behind all sorts of great stuff for the Belgian yeast to nibble on. The result was an explosive fermentation that darn near blew the uncapped three piece air lock right out of the bung. I had krausen everywhere. I would suggest trying it... it can't hurt.

 

[sweetcell]

This is what i plan to do this weekend with my tripel. Simple receipe 1.077 og 1.009 fg

Pitch rate using mr malty
Oxygenate using stone for 2 minutes
Pitch at 62 degrees place carboy in chamber with ambiant temp of 70 degrees
Let yeast temp rise naturally when reaches 1.010 rack to secondary
Secondary at 50 degrees for a month
l

- if you're using pure oxygen, 2 minutes is on the high side. i wouldn't do any longer than that. 60 seconds typically gets you to the right level.
- 62 is pretty cold to pitch at. depending on your yeast that might some part of the population to sleep. i would aim to pitch around 66.
- IMO the #1 thing you can do to get more belgian esters is to ramp up the heat higher than 70. my suggestion for temps by day: 66, 68, 70, 70, 70, 72, 74, 76, 78, 80, hold for 2 days until all signs of fermentation have subsided. not that holding at 70 will likely require some cooling. the fermentation will be producing heat at that point.
- you can't bank on 1.010 being your FG. yeast might go lower, or it might not be done at 1.010. let the yeast tell you when it's done instead of fixating on a certain number.

I did something recently that will become a standard part of my brewing. I pitched two tablespoons of bread yeast into the wort with about 5-10 mins left in the boil. That killed the yeast, but left behind all sorts of great stuff for the Belgian yeast to nibble on. The result was an explosive fermentation that darn near blew the uncapped three piece air lock right out of the bung. I had krausen everywhere. I would suggest trying it... it can't hurt.

yup, live yeast loves to much on dead yeast - it's a perfect food for them, what better to build your cell walls with than somebody else's cell walls? you can also add a spoonful of slurry from another batch as long as it's a clean sample (not much trub, hop material, etc).

 

[jtp137]

- if you're using pure oxygen, 2 minutes is on the high side. i wouldn't do any longer than that. 60 seconds typically gets you to the right level.
- 62 is pretty cold to pitch at. depending on your yeast that might some part of the population to sleep. i would aim to pitch around 66.
- IMO the #1 thing you can do to get more belgian esters is to ramp up the heat higher than 70. my suggestion for temps by day: 66, 68, 70, 70, 70, 72, 74, 76, 78, 80, hold for 2 days until all signs of fermentation have subsided. not that holding at 70 will likely require some cooling. the fermentation will be producing heat at that point.

Do you set the ambiant temperature at these levels (66, 68, 70, 70, 70, 72, 74, 76, 78, 80) or do you place a probe on the carboy and control it that way? I have a freezer chamber that is able to heat or cool the carboy. I put the probe hanging in the air. I understand that the temp inside the carboy can be atleast 7 degrees higher than the outside

 

[sweetcell]

Do you set the ambiant temperature at these levels (66, 68, 70, 70, 70, 72, 74, 76, 78, 80) or do you place a probe on the carboy and control it that way? I have a freezer chamber that is able to heat or cool the carboy. I put the probe hanging in the air. I understand that the temp inside the carboy can be atleast 7 degrees higher than the outside

you definitely want the temp of the beer inside the carboy (or the temp of the carboy itself, as a proxy for its contents), not the air around it. if you have a thermowell, use that. alternately, tape the probe to the outside of your carboy and insulate it from the ambient air by covering the probe with bubble wrap, towels, etc.

 

[jtp137]

you definitely want the temp of the beer inside the carboy (or the temp of the carboy itself, as a proxy for its contents), not the air around it. if you have a thermowell, use that. alternately, tape the probe to the outside of your carboy and insulate it from the ambient air by covering the probe with bubble wrap, towels, etc.

I have placed the probe on the outside of my glass carboy before but i did not insulate it from the ambient air, anyway. I did raise the temp over a week i started in the mid 60's and ended up in the low 80's. The beer didnt have a great yeast flavor infact after 3 month carbinated in the keg it tasted clean as hell. I left the beer in the primary for a month transfered it to secondary for a nother month then keged it. Someone suggested to me that the trick is to get a fast strong hot fermentation then rack as soon as it is done. I have no idea why my manual increase in temperature didnt produce any esters. I wanted to try letting the yeast naturally rise on its own by pitching low 60's and setting the ambiant temperature to 70. I read this in BRLAM

 

[Calder]

I tried under pitching with no luck. I think the long lag time isn't good. From what i gathered the belgians pitch yeast with high viability that how they can get away with the low pitch

????? What has high or low viability got to do with pitching yeast rates. The pitch rate is based number of viable yeast cells. If you under-pitch with a bunch of dead cells you didn't calculate it correctly.

- IMO the #1 thing you can do to get more belgian esters is to ramp up the heat higher than 70. my suggestion for temps by day: 66, 68, 70, 70, 70, 72, 74, 76, 78, 80, hold for 2 days until all signs of fermentation have subsided.

+ 1 ramp the temp up. It depends on the specific strain, but generally I start around 68 to 70 and am in the 80s after 5 days. As I said it is strain dependent; I will keep the Anchouffe strain under 75 until fermentation is basically done, and only raise it to finish it off as it can produce fusel alcohols at higher temps.

 

[highgravitybacon]

In the homebrew setting, under pitching is nothing short of a disaster waiting to happen. None of the main trappist yeasts are short on esters. It's exceedingly unlikely that a person could over pitch to such an extent to ruin their beer. But the reverse isn't true.

 

[jtp137]

????? What has high or low viability got to do with pitching yeast rates. The pitch rate is based number of viable yeast cells. If you under-pitch with a bunch of dead cells you didn't calculate it correctly.



+ 1 ramp the temp up. It depends on the specific strain, but generally I start around 68 to 70 and am in the 80s after 5 days. As I said it is strain dependent; I will keep the Anchouffe strain under 75 until fermentation is basically done, and only raise it to finish it off as it can produce fusel alcohols at higher temps.

I am not an expert I am just repeating what I heard on an interview with Stan Hieronymus on the Beer Smith podcast. He said that the Belgians can under pitch because they pitch extremely viable yeast.
How do you control you temp? Do you tape the probe to the outside of the carboy and raise the temp manually. Or do you pitch at low temp and set the ambient temperature high and let the yeast rise naturally?

 

[Calder]

How do you control you temp? Do you tape the probe to the outside of the carboy and raise the temp manually. Or do you pitch at low temp and set the ambient temperature high and let the yeast rise naturally?

Any time I want to control temperature I use a fermenter with a fermometer stuck a little below the top of the wort and sit the fermenter in a swamp cooler filled with water to a couple of inches below the fermometer. I use a fish tank heater and circulate the water in the cooler to keep it consistent throughout. I monitor the temperature of the water and the fermometer strip. They usually stay within a degree or two fo each other.

I ferment in my basement, and the temperature never gets above about 68 F (in mid summer), so I don't really need anything to cool the water since I don't lager.


.... And if you pitch from a fresh starter, your yeast will be just as viable as the pros.

 

[tgmartin000]

Excellent info here. I've had zero luck with belgian brews so far. I've made a golden strong, a rye saison, and a tripel, and none have turned out well. The strong had DMS (pretty sure I way underpitched), the rye was super phenolic and plastic (which is slowly aging out after 9 months) and the tripel is a bit sour-ish and not too great. I also did a pretty poor job controlling ferm temp with them, which may have contributed.

I just got a fridge with a temp controller - tomorrow's my first lager. Can't wait to be able to accurately control my ferm temp! Going to try another saison soon...I love belgian beers and am bummed that my attempts have been so bad so far. Although the rye scored a 34 somehow.

 

[Hopper5000]

If I am not mistaken DMS comes from not boiling the pilsner malt for long enough (I believe generally folks do 90min boils), and not cooling the wort properly. I don't think fermentation has as much to do with it.

 

[jtp137]

Well i made a 12 gallon batch of a tripel today i actually decided to do open fermentation. I put the wort in my 25 gallon mash tun. Pitched at around 64 degrees and i placed it into my fermentation chamber. I plan on setting the ambiant temperature to 70 degrees and letting the temps rise naturally. I hope that the fermentation produces enough heat to get it up to 75

 

[Hopper5000]

good luck!

 

[Piratwolf]

FWIW, I actually heard Neva Parker give an interview where she said OVER pitching, not under pitching, creates greater ester production. I was shocked to year this, and it doesn't seemed to have penetrated the HB community. Hoping she or Chris White will be presenting at NHC so I can ask for clarification!

 

[jtp137]

Thats good to hear I actually over pitched this batch a tad. Well from what Mr malty was telling me. I also pumped it full of pure o2. And put a good dose of yeast nutriant. I am going to check it after curch

 

[Gus_13]

FWIW, I actually heard Neva Parker give an interview where she said OVER pitching, not under pitching, creates greater ester production. I was shocked to year this, and it doesn't seemed to have penetrated the HB community. Hoping she or Chris White will be presenting at NHC so I can ask for clarification!

This was my understanding. I thought more ester production comes from happy non overworked yeast. I over pitch most times and all my Belgians are easily recognized. And enjoyed.

I also let the beer rise naturally over time. By using the fermenter to control ambient temperature and watching the thermometer strip on the carboy. Seems to be working out.

 

[jtp137]

This was my understanding. I thought more ester production comes from happy non overworked yeast. I over pitch most times and all my Belgians are easily recognized. And enjoyed.

I also let the beer rise naturally over time. By using the fermenter to control ambient temperature and watching the thermometer strip on the carboy. Seems to be working out.

What do you keep the ambiant temperature at i have mine at 72

 

[jtp137]

I pitched my yeast on Saturday around 4PM. My wort temp was around 64 degrees. High kreusen about 24 hours later I skimmed some of the brown stuff off the yeast on Sunday. This morning it looked like it was starting to fall. I top cropped some of the yeast. I want to take a gravity reading when I get home from work tonight. My entire room smells like bananas. I am getting all kind of crazy fruity esters coming from the open fermentation. I also wanted to mention that I set the ambient temperature of the fermentation chamber to 75 degrees. I measured the wort at high kreusen and it was 78 degrees. There are two things that I am worried about I wonder if someone can chime in.
I pumped pure 02 for 2 minutes because it was a 12 gallon batch. Was I supposed to double the time because I did a 12 gallon batch?
I read somewhere that you need to constantly re rouse the yeast when you do open fermentation because they tend to get too relaxed. I didn’t know this and today

 

[jtp137]

Ok here are the results so far. The open fermentation went extremely well 89% attenuation in six days. I left it sit on the yeast for 10 days just to make sure. Then I racked into a carboy and set ambient temperature to 50 degrees. In two weeks one carboy looks to have cleared well (to top) and the other carboy still has a way to go. The yeast ester flavor is outstanding it’s just what I was looking for. Here are the variables that I changed since my last couple of Belgians that where surprisingly clean.
Switch yeast from Westmalle stain to Chimay strain
Pitched I little more yeast than what Mr malty was suggesting (I rounded up the starter to the nearest liter)
Of course the open fermentation in my 25 gallon stock pot
I will post some notes when this thing gets carbed!

 

[etrain666]

For my bigger Belgiums and saisons, I will try to hit 72-74 degrees for the most active ferment stage which usually lasts 2-3 days. Once I see that it is slowing down just a bit, I will add my sugar additions. This drys the beer way out and I will have FGs around 1.001.

 

[g-star]

For my bigger Belgiums and saisons, I will try to hit 72-74 degrees for the most active ferment stage which usually lasts 2-3 days. Once I see that it is slowing down just a bit, I will add my sugar additions. This drys the beer way out and I will have FGs around 1.001.

What do you do for you Englands and Germans?

 

[pdxal]

For my bigger Belgiums and saisons, I will try to hit 72-74 degrees for the most active ferment stage which usually lasts 2-3 days. Once I see that it is slowing down just a bit, I will add my sugar additions. This drys the beer way out and I will have FGs around 1.001.

Are they annexing part of France to get bigger or something?

 

[Vman]

This has just been my experience (I've now made four belgian-inspired batches including a Tripel that I have people lined up for regularly, but...) I pitch high and stay high. I pitch the yeast in the 70s and then ferment in a carboy on top of a heating vent wrapped in a blanket. The "Belgian yeast" flavours disappear when the yeast gets cold. All of my batches have come out great. It's the heat that makes it give those peppery/banana-like flavours and scents. ... just my 0.02 cents.

 

[sweetcell]

I pitch the yeast in the 70s and then ferment in a carboy on top of a heating vent wrapped in a blanket.

that seems like a bit too warm to me. i brew a lot of belgians, and my experience tells me that your plan will indeed lead to a lot of esters - but at the risk of a lot of fusels and hot alcohol flavors.

i prefer to start lower (67-68) and ramp up over a few days. i try to time peak fermentation at 72*F and hold it there until things start to slow down, then start going up again.

 

[Vman]

I am a fan of Chimay, Dupont, Westveltern, Unibrou .... etc. I have reproduced their flavour profiles almost exactly keeping the temps. in the 70s. When I dip into the 60s I have found my yeast goes dormant and the beer ends up under attenuated. I have had success with this and will continue. But, by all means, if you have yeast that works in the 60 range, then I applaud you. I just can't seem to get it to work out unless I get things hot.

 

[sweetcell]

belgian yeast going dormant below 70 is not normal behaviour, so if your yeast is there might be something else going on... maybe not enough oxygen? pitching too low a cell count? have you done this more than once?

i'm not aware of any belgian yeast that is inherently unhappy at 67-68. i've used at least 6 different strains (including the Unibroue yeast - amazing stuff, higly recommended!) and none have complained at starting off below 70. but as with all things homebrew, YMMV.

 

[solbes]

I've always had plenty of belgian character, and mine usually spend most of the fermentation in the 60's (start 64 ramp to upper 60's, finish 70-72). They always get plenty low in FG too (sub 1.008). I do wonder what would happen if I ramped it to the mid 70's at high krausen.

To this point I have only used 3787, which is beastly and has blown the bucket lid in 2/3 batches (even with foam control). I have no means of using pure O2, so just a regular bucket shake for 1-2 minutes. I use 1/2 tsp of yeast nutrient, keeps the yeasties chugging. And I pitch a lot of yeast.

 

[Vman]

belgian yeast going dormant below 70 is not normal behaviour, so if your yeast is there might be something else going on... maybe not enough oxygen? pitching too low a cell count? have you done this more than once?

i'm not aware of any belgian yeast that is inherently unhappy at 67-68. i've used at least 6 different strains (including the Unibroue yeast - amazing stuff, higly recommended!) and none have complained at starting off below 70. but as with all things homebrew, YMMV.

I'm wondering if my issues are coming from the partial mash..? I have heard it's different than AG. I use a lot of DME in my batches and maybe the yeast just struggles to convert it??

 

[jtp137]

Currently the beer is carbonated somewhat. I noticed that the huge yeast flavor the beer had when I kegged it is not as strong as it was. The beer is good obviously a little green. Wonder if the yeast flavor will intensify as it ages

 

[sweetcell]

I'm wondering if my issues are coming from the partial mash..? I have heard it's different than AG. I use a lot of DME in my batches and maybe the yeast just struggles to convert it??

as far as i know, DME shouldn't explain it. extracts sometimes result is higher finishing gravities, but there is plenty in there to keep the yeast happy.

Currently the beer is carbonated somewhat. I noticed that the huge yeast flavor the beer had when I kegged it is not as strong as it was. The beer is good obviously a little green. Wonder if the yeast flavor will intensify as it ages

you say it's "carbonated somewhat"... sounds like it needs more time. this will allow to yeast to finish eating up the priming sugar and for the yeast to settle out. speaking of which, what do you mean by "yeast flavors"? do you mean the by-products created by the yeast (esters, phenols, fusels, etc) or do you mean the taste of the yeast itself? if it's the latter, yes they will subside because with some time, the yeast will fall out and the beer will clear. if you mean the former, not really - the beer will evolve over time and change but those flavors will always be there, mostly.

 

[jtp137]

as far as i know, DME shouldn't explain it. extracts sometimes result is higher finishing gravities, but there is plenty in there to keep the yeast happy.

you say it's "carbonated somewhat"... sounds like it needs more time. this will allow to yeast to finish eating up the priming sugar and for the yeast to settle out. speaking of which, what do you mean by "yeast flavors"? do you mean the by-products created by the yeast (esters, phenols, fusels, etc) or do you mean the taste of the yeast itself? if it's the latter, yes they will subside because with some time, the yeast will fall out and the beer will clear. if you mean the former, not really - the beer will evolve over time and change but those flavors will always be there, mostly.

I forced carbed this one. In keg for about 5 days its a little fizzy. I like my belgians around 3.5 volumes I can tell it is not here yet. When i am talking about yeast flavors i am talking abou the esters. When the beer went into the keg it had incredible fruit esters and was pretty phenolic. After 5 days in keg those flavors are a lot less noticable. I can tell the beer is green i was just wondering as the beer ages those flavors will pop out again

 

[sweetcell]

When i am talking about yeast flavors i am talking abou the esters. When the beer went into the keg it had incredible fruit esters and was pretty phenolic. After 5 days in keg those flavors are a lot less noticable. I can tell the beer is green i was just wondering as the beer ages those flavors will pop out again

interesting that the esters disappeared like that! in my experience, esters don't fade with time. that's why you can have an aged belgian and know that it's unmistakably a belgian. i have no idea why yours would have gone AWOL like that. especially since it was partially carb'ed, right? that should have made the flavors pop even more.

 

[jtp137]

interesting that the esters disappeared like that! in my experience, esters don't fade with time. that's why you can have an aged belgian and know that it's unmistakably a belgian. i have no idea why yours would have gone AWOL like that. especially since it was partially carb'ed, right? that should have made the flavors pop even more.

Thats what I thought. I am hoping the green flavors are masking the esters

 

[highgravitybacon]

Esters will fade over time. Look at a hefeweizen. The banana aroma dissipates rapidly over several weeks to months.

 

[sweetcell]

Esters will fade over time. Look at a hefeweizen. The banana aroma dissipates rapidly over several weeks to months.

that's not the esters so much as the wheat. wheat beers don't keep for a long time, they are meant to be drunk fresh. what you're tasting is the whole beer going stale.