Stale Homebrew, HSA?...

[Phil_T]

Hi all,

I've been noticing in my last few batches of homebrew a weird stale hop aroma, I'm using just about the freshest hops I can find, kept in freezer until needed, and the malt I'm using isn't too old either, it certainly doesn't smell or taste stale.

The only difference to my process/equipment since I started noticing is taking the silicone tube off the end of my recirculation arm. I use an all-in-one brewer and used to have the silicone tube submerged during recirculation, now without it there is some splashing.

For years I've assumed HSA to be somewhat of a myth and not something I've ever worried about... until now. Anyone else noticed a similar issue? I'm now worried when I pick up my grain basket to let it drain into the kettle that I'm introducing too much oxygen too.

Any thoughts?

 

[marc1]

Hi all,

I've been noticing in my last few batches of homebrew a weird stale hop aroma, I'm using just about the freshest hops I can find, kept in freezer until needed, and the malt I'm using isn't too old either, it certainly doesn't smell or taste stale.

The only difference to my process/equipment since I started noticing is taking the silicone tube off the end of my recirculation arm. I use an all-in-one brewer and used to have the silicone tube submerged during recirculation, now without it there is some splashing.

For years I've assumed HSA to be somewhat of a myth and not something I've ever worried about... until now. Anyone else noticed a similar issue? I'm now worried when I pick up my grain basket to let it drain into the kettle that I'm introducing too much oxygen too.

Any thoughts?

Put the silicone tube back on and see if it makes a difference

 

[hotbeer]

I don't know if HSA actually might be a thing or not, but since I've quit aerating my wort and just direct pitch dry yeast to the fermenter my hop notes seem brighter and less oxidized.

However I might have gotten better in that same time at eliminating O2 getting in my beer when transferring from the fermenter to the bottles.

 

[Phil_T]

Put the silicone tube back on and see if it makes a difference

Oh I'll be putting it on next time for sure was just curious if anyone else had had similar experience

 

[Phil_T]

I don't know if HSA actually might be a thing or not, but since I've quit aerating my wort and just direct pitch dry yeast to the fermenter my hop notes seem brighter and less oxidized.

However I might have gotten better in that same time at eliminating O2 getting in my beer when transferring from the fermenter to the bottles.

Interesting, I've mostly been running off to my fermenter at 30C to pitch Kveik plus and splashing quite a lot, perhaps that could also be an issue

 

[DBhomebrew]

Interesting, I've mostly been running off to my fermenter at 30C to pitch Kveik plus and splashing quite a lot, perhaps that could also be an issue

Aeration at just before pitching is not a problem at all. Indeed, yeast need oxygen at that time. Aeration at other times may or may not be an issue, but just before pitch aerate, aerate, aerate. The yeast will use that oxygen to build themselves up and replicate. Dry yeasts do not need aeration. They are held in a special state of being. Kveik? My understanding is it'll make beer from shoe leather.

 

[marc1]

Oh I'll be putting it on next time for sure was just curious if anyone else had had similar experience

I don't do hot side LODO, but my understanding is that the oxygen damage is cumulative. Whether you can discern this difference or not is something I can't answer, but there are a lot of people who believe it's a thing, and a lot who think it's not.

Are you deoxygenating the water, adding antioxidents, using a mash cap, underletting your mash, draining wort from the mash with no splashing, and running a completely closed fermentation through packaging?

If not, then I think it's unlikely that this one thing is responsible, because of how much o2 is getting in everywhere else.

If you are concerned about HSA, I recommend posting this to the LODO subforum here to get a more educated answer on that.

Having said that, the easy thing is to change your process back to what is was before and see if that makes a difference.

 

[marc1]

Also, is this the same lot of hops that tasted good before, or is it a different lot? Maybe you've got "bad" ones now, or maybe your earlier ones were just exceptionally good for the variety.

 

[hotbeer]

Interesting, I've mostly been running off to my fermenter at 30C to pitch Kveik plus and splashing quite a lot, perhaps that could also be an issue

I didn't find Kveik Plus yeast... but if that is a dry yeast, then probably it can be found on their website that no aeration is needed because of the it's high sterol content. For liquid yeasts, I think they all recommend aeration of the wort.

Not all the dry yeast maker say that in their specs for the specific yeast, but many times you can find that claim made broadly about their dry yeasts in their other literature or FAQ's. And not aerating the wort is only for pitching them the first time. If you reuse them in the next batch, then treat like any other liquid or reused yeast and aerate the wort.

Same for rehydration. Many will say it's unnecessary and hint that they've seen just as good if not better results just direct pitching the dry yeast.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Is the kveik new? Or is it a holdover from your more successful batches? I found my kveik batches to be an almost completely different beverage than my 'traditional' strain batches.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Hi all,

I've been noticing in my last few batches of homebrew a weird stale hop aroma, I'm using just about the freshest hops I can find, kept in freezer until needed, and the malt I'm using isn't too old either, it certainly doesn't smell or taste stale.

The only difference to my process/equipment since I started noticing is taking the silicone tube off the end of my recirculation arm. I use an all-in-one brewer and used to have the silicone tube submerged during recirculation, now without it there is some splashing.

For years I've assumed HSA to be somewhat of a myth and not something I've ever worried about... until now. Anyone else noticed a similar issue? I'm now worried when I pick up my grain basket to let it drain into the kettle that I'm introducing too much oxygen too.

Any thoughts?

The truth is, for the majority of us (non LOB folk) we are completely oxidizing our wort on the hot side. HSA is biochemically real, but I would argue that for many of us the flavour effect is sufficiently subtle that we don't pick it up and we store and drink our beer under conditions where the long term affects on stability aren't really that important. I brew in an all-in-one and I can do splashy or non-splashy brewing and it doesn't affect the final product.. ..that is within the limits of my palate and 2-3 month lifespan of a keg of beer. I have, however, accidentally totally oxidized batches on the cold side (i.e. in the fermenter). I had one incident where the lid of my Brewbucket wasn't sealed properly. I didn't know and left it too long in the fermenter - ended up with really stale beer.. .had to dump that one. When I was learning to keg I did splashy transfers into unpurged kegs. The beer was initially fine but staled after a week or two, surely through oxidation by my poor technique.

So I guess the question is: have you changed anything on the cold side?

 

[Phil_T]

Aeration at just before pitching is not a problem at all. Indeed, yeast need oxygen at that time. Aeration at other times may or may not be an issue, but just before pitch aerate, aerate, aerate. The yeast will use that oxygen to build themselves up and replicate. Dry yeasts do not need aeration. They are held in a special state of being. Kveik? My understanding is it'll make beer from shoe leather.

I've not had a problem with aerating before, but I'd normally done it at 20C as opposed to 30-35C, don't know if that temp would make a difference?

 

[Phil_T]

Also, is this the same lot of hops that tasted good before, or is it a different lot? Maybe you've got "bad" ones now, or maybe your earlier ones were just exceptionally good for the variety.

I'd ruled out hops being a problem as it was across several beers all with different hops having the same muted stale character

 

[Phil_T]

I didn't find Kveik Plus yeast... but if that is a dry yeast, then probably it can be found on their website that no aeration is needed because of the it's high sterol content. For liquid yeasts, I think they all recommend aeration of the wort.

Not all the dry yeast maker say that in their specs for the specific yeast, but many times you can find that claim made broadly about their dry yeasts in their other literature or FAQ's. And not aerating the wort is only for pitching them the first time. If you reuse them in the next batch, then treat like any other liquid or reused yeast and aerate the wort.

Same for rehydration. Many will say it's unnecessary and hint that they've seen just as good if not better results just direct pitching the dry yeast.

Sorry no idea why the word 'plus' got there, I'm using Kveik strains originally from the Kveik FB group, so original strains, mostly Hornindal complete with bacteria but again never had this issue until the last few batches, perhaps my starter is going bad

 

[Phil_T]

The truth is, for the majority of us (non LOB folk) we are completely oxidizing our wort on the hot side. HSA is biochemically real, but I would argue that for many of us the flavour effect is sufficiently subtle that we don't pick it up and we store and drink our beer under conditions where the long term affects on stability aren't really that important. I brew in an all-in-one and I can do splashy or non-splashy brewing and it doesn't affect the final product.. ..that is within the limits of my palate and 2-3 month lifespan of a keg of beer. I have, however, accidentally totally oxidized batches on the cold side (i.e. in the fermenter). I had one incident where the lid of my Brewbucket wasn't sealed properly. I didn't know and left it too long in the fermenter - ended up with really stale beer.. .had to dump that one. When I was learning to keg I did splashy transfers into unpurged kegs. The beer was initially fine but staled after a week or two, surely through oxidation by my poor technique.

So I guess the question is: have you changed anything on the cold side?

Nothing changed on the cold side, I did have an infected Schwarzbier in one keg but have since nuked the kegs and put new O rings in all kegs and taps to be on the safe side

 

[Phil_T]

Is the kveik new? Or is it a holdover from your more successful batches? I found my kveik batches to be an almost completely different beverage than my 'traditional' strain batches.

I tend to keep a separate starter, I found some batches got excessively bitter if I top cropped or used slurry from a previous particularly hoppy batch so I tend to stick a flake in starter from time to time and dry the slurry for the next few batches

 

[DBhomebrew]

I tend to keep a separate starter, I found some batches got excessively bitter if I top cropped or used slurry from a previous particularly hoppy batch so I tend to stick a flake in starter from time to time and dry the slurry for the next few batches

But kveik itself isn't new to you. You know what you're getting there.

 

[hottpeper13]

Since cold break happens at 70* and your transferring it at 86*-95*, aerating and pitching,could that be the cause of staling.
I chill all my brews to 68* and if pitching Kveik I pitch at 68* and put a heater on.

 

[marc1]

Since cold break happens at 70* and your transferring it at 86*-95*, aerating and pitching,could that be the cause of staling.
I chill all my brews to 68* and if pitching Kveik I pitch at 68* and put a heater on.

Where did you find out about the 70° thing? I've always heard that it was the rapid cooling that precipitated it.

 

[hottpeper13]

In the Brewing and Malting Science course put on by the MBAA at UW Madison.
Funny thing ,the course ended on a Fri and my brew club was doing a Big brew day on Sat. I didn't brew but attended to help pour beer and rag on guys. Know one hit their mash temp and after chilling and racking to a carboy one guy set his down to open the car door and ready a place,and when he came back to get it, all of a sudden there was egg drop soup forming right before our eyes. Everyone says WTF, I go it must have not been below 70 in the BK. No it was 80,I said it's 70 now. He looked at the temp tape and it was between 68-70. I spouted my new knowledge and all had a beer.