Specialty Grains Temp/Time

[Eric Wann]

I'm starting a NEIPA this weekend and have some pale malts and flaked oats to steep as specialty grains.

My question is how long or at what temp (or both) should I steep these grains?

Shooting for an SRM around 6.

 

[IslandLizard]

pale malts and flaked oats to steep as specialty grains.

Those need to be mashed together at 150-154F for an hour.

I gather this is an extract brew, for the bulk of fermentables?

Are you planning large hop additions late in the boil?
"Whirlpooling" or "hopstands" after flameout at reduced temps?
Large dry hop amounts?

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

IslandLizard is very knowledgeable and helpful fellow brewer, but I must disagree (no offense intended). 1 hour for steeping is too long in an extract brew.

10 to 20 minutes steep is long enough. Crack the grain. Bring your water to a boil. Turn off heat. Steep grains for 10 to 20 minutes. Remove grains. Stir in extract until dissolved. Continue...

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm starting a NEIPA this weekend and have some pale malts and flaked oats to steep as specialty grains.

My question is how long or at what temp (or both) should I steep these grains?

Shooting for an SRM around 6.

Can you share the full recipe?

 

[Alex4mula]

IslandLizard is very knowledgeable and helpful fellow brewer, but I must disagree (no offense intended). 1 hour for steeping is too long in an extract brew.

10 to 20 minutes steep is long enough. Crack the grain. Bring your water to a boil. Turn off heat. Steep grains for 10 to 20 minutes. Remove grains. Stir in extract until dissolved. Continue...

Curious why boil water before?

 

[Yooper]

IslandLizard is very knowledgeable and helpful fellow brewer, but I must disagree (no offense intended). 1 hour for steeping is too long in an extract brew.

10 to 20 minutes steep is long enough. Crack the grain. Bring your water to a boil. Turn off heat. Steep grains for 10 to 20 minutes. Remove grains. Stir in extract until dissolved. Continue...

No, sorry. If you've got some " pale malt", it's hard to know what you have and if they can be steeped or not- but with the oats, it's assumed that you have some pale malt as base grains in there. That's why it needs to be 150-155 for an hour. They must be mashed, and a 10-20 minute steep just won't cut it for conversion.

However, we really need to know what you have for your grains. Can you specify what grains we have to ensure your batch is made appropriately?

 

[Kickass]

Yooper hit it. I think the biggest thing here is to know exactly what grains you have and whether your intent is to steep or mashing.

 

[Eric Wann]

Those need to be mashed together at 150-154F for an hour.

I gather this is an extract brew, for the bulk of fermentables?

Are you planning large hop additions late in the boil?
"Whirlpooling" or "hopstands" after flameout at reduced temps?
Large dry hop amounts?

Yes this is an extract brew. 6 .6lbs of Pale LME, specialty grains, and 2 extra lbs. of DME.

No large late hop additions to boil.

I am not set up to do a whirlpool. Had not planned to hopstand.

I was planning to dry hop.

total hops include 1 oz. mosaic early boil, 2 oz citra late boil, and 2 oz dry hop after a week or two.

 

[IslandLizard]

IslandLizard is very knowledgeable and helpful fellow brewer, but I must disagree (no offense intended). 1 hour for steeping is too long in an extract brew.

10 to 20 minutes steep is long enough. Crack the grain. Bring your water to a boil. Turn off heat. Steep grains for 10 to 20 minutes. Remove grains. Stir in extract until dissolved. Continue...

Flaked oats need to be mashed, hence the need for adding a diastatic (base) malt, containing enzymes to convert the starches to sugars.

AFAIK "pale malt" generally refers to lightly kilned base malt with fairly high diastatic power. This means there are plenty of available enzymes for full conversion including a good amount of (non-diastatic) adjunct, such as (unmalted) flaked goods and specialty malts. A few British pale malts are an exception, as they can't convert much more than themselves.

Simply steeping flaked oats (or any flaked grain) by themselves won't give you anything more than just a starchy porridge. You're better off just eating it.

"Steeping" flaked goods together with a base malt (1:1 ratio is good) in a bag may give you some, and perhaps even good conversion, depending on how it's performed. The best case scenario would approximate an actual mash, with a certain ratio of water, and depending on intended fermentability, held between 148-160F for an hour.

Needless to say, a good lauter and sparge is necessary to get/keep all those good sugars in the boil kettle.

 

[Eric Wann]

IslandLizard is very knowledgeable and helpful fellow brewer, but I must disagree (no offense intended). 1 hour for steeping is too long in an extract brew.

10 to 20 minutes steep is long enough. Crack the grain. Bring your water to a boil. Turn off heat. Steep grains for 10 to 20 minutes. Remove grains. Stir in extract until dissolved. Continue...

The heat from boiling water wont affect the color of my final beer when these specialties steep?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes this is an extract brew. 6 .6lbs of Pale LME

That's not "pale malt," that's pale malt extract.

[EDIT] After seeing the recipe posted below, it includes 6 oz Pale malt and 8 oz Flaked Oats. Those 2 get mashed together for an hour in a medium size pot with a quart and a half to 2 quarts of water. Hold at 154F for an hour. A prewarmed to 156F, but turned off oven works like a charm for that.

It's similar to steeping but more controlled and at specific temps.

When it's done mashing, stir well, separate the wort from the grist. Sparge (rinse) once or twice with a quart of warm water, each time.

 

[Eric Wann]

Can you share the full recipe?

This is what I am doing. I do not have the "steep to convert insert." I am also adding 2lbs. of pale DME to boost ABV. I swapped yeast to Omega OYL-11 British Ale V

 

[Eric Wann]

No, sorry. If you've got some " pale malt", it's hard to know what you have and if they can be steeped or not- but with the oats, it's assumed that you have some pale malt as base grains in there. That's why it needs to be 150-155 for an hour. They must be mashed, and a 10-20 minute steep just won't cut it for conversion.

However, we really need to know what you have for your grains. Can you specify what grains we have to ensure your batch is made appropriately?

I wish I could. Here is everything I have from my brew shop. I just know its pale grains, flaked oats, pilsen light LME, 2lbs pale dme.

 

[Eric Wann]

Yooper hit it. I think the biggest thing here is to know exactly what grains you have and whether your intent is to steep or mashing.

Copy that. I posted pics of what I have, but I am not sure they will be helpful.

 

[IslandLizard]

Copy that. I posted pics of what I have, but I am not sure they will be helpful.

I've edited my previous post, #11, added the mash/sparge instructions.

 

[Eric Wann]

That's not "pale malt," that's pale malt extract.

[EDIT] After seeing the recipe posted below, it includes 6 oz Pale malt and 8 oz Flaked Oats. Those 2 get mashed together for an hour in a medium size pot with a quart and a half of water. Hold at 154F for an hour. A prewarmed to 156F, but turned off oven works like a charm for that.

Copy. I will do that! Thanks for the insight. If I get my water heated to 156F then drop in the specialty stuff, should I kill the heat? keep low to maintain temp? and then just dump this water into my main brew kettle and begin the normal 60 min boil steps?

 

[IslandLizard]

Do you have any bittering hop on hand? I'd bitter with a little Warrior, Nugget, Magnum, Columbus, pretty much anything will work. 1/4-1/2 oz is probably plenty.

Save the Mosaic for the hop stand or dry hop, or split evenly between the two.

I'd add 1 oz of Citra at flame out, chill down as quickly as possible to 150F then add 3 oz Citra and Mosaic for a 30' hop steep at 150F before chilling down to ferm temps.

 

[Eric Wann]

Do you have any bittering hop on hand? I'd bitter with a little Warrior, Nugget, Magnum, Columbus, pretty much anything will work. 1/4-1/2 oz is probably plenty.

Save the Mosaic for the hop stand or dry hop, or split evenly between the two.

I'd add 1 oz of Citra at flame out, chill down as quickly as possible to 150F then add 3 oz Citra and Mosaic for a 30' hop steep at 150F before chilling down to ferm temps.

I dont have any extra hops on hand, but my brew shop is only 20 min away so I could snag some before I begin the brew. Though for this one I am trying to only lightly hop the batch to see where I land with bitterness, flavor, and aroma. My biggest fear is over- hopping right out the gate.

 

[IslandLizard]

Copy. I will do that! Thanks for the insight. If I get my water heated to 156F then drop in the specialty stuff, should I kill the heat? keep low to maintain temp? and then just dump this water into my main brew kettle and begin the normal 60 min boil steps?

Heat water to 160-165F before stirring the grain in, it will drop a few degrees when adding the cold grain. Stir the mash well for a few minutes, making sure all the grain is thoroughly wet. You may need to heat it back up to 154-156F for the hour rest in the oven or wrapped up in a few thick towels, blankets, or a sleeping bag. You may give it a stir (and possibly a gentle reheat) midway, if you want, and definitely a good stir when it's done. Sparging (rinsing) is recommended for best efficiency.

Yup, add to the captured/strained wort to your kettle. When it boils start the timer and process.

Add only one can of malt extract to your water at the beginning of the boil and the rest (2nd can + 2 pounds of DME) at flameout. It prevents excessive wort darkening and keeps it taste fresher. Your hop utilization (creating bittering) is also more efficient that way.

Do you do full boils or top up in your fermenter?

 

[IslandLizard]

I dont have any extra hops on hand, but my brew shop is only 20 min away so I could snag some before I begin the brew. Though for this one I am trying to only lightly hop the batch to see where I land with bitterness, flavor, and aroma. My biggest fear is over- hopping right out the gate.

I'd start with 1/4 oz (only 7 grams!) of a 15-18% AA bittering hop, or equivalent (that's what I use in NEIPAs). The late addition and hop stand will add a bit more bittering later.

Sure, you can use the Mosaic for bittering, it just won't have much of its unique flavor and aroma left after an hour boil. Hence the suggestion to keep a simpler, cheaper, all purpose bittering hop on hand for bittering.

Store opened hops in their original foil pouches, flap rolled up and taped down, pressing all air out while rolling the flap. Store in freezer.

 

[Eric Wann]

Heat water to 160-165F before stirring the grain in, it will drop a few degrees when adding the cold grain. Stir the mash well for a few minutes, making sure all the grain is thoroughly wet. You may need to heat it back up to 154-156F for the hour rest in the oven or wrapped up in a few thick towels, blankets, or a sleeping bag. You may give it a stir (and possibly a gentle reheat) midway, if you want, and definitely a good stir when it's done. Sparging (rinsing) is recommended for best efficiency.

Yup, add to the captured/strained wort to your kettle. When it boils start the timer and process.

Add only one can of malt extract to your water at the beginning of the boil and the rest (2nd can + 2 pounds of DME) at flameout. It prevents excessive wort darkening and keeps it taste fresher. Your hop utilization (creating bittering) is also more efficient that way.

Do you do full boils or top up in your fermenter?

Copy above. I do top off in the fermenter. 2.5 3.5 gallons in the boil.

 

[Eric Wann]

I'd start with 1/4 oz (only 7 grams!) of a 15-18% AA bittering hop, or equivalent (that's what I use in NEIPAs). The late addition and hop stand will add a bit more bittering later.

Sure, you can use the Mosaic for bittering, it just won't have much of its unique flavor and aroma left after an hour boil. Hence the suggestion to keep a simpler, cheaper, all purpose bittering hop on hand for bittering.

Store opened hops in their original foil pouches, flap rolled up and taped down, pressing all air out while rolling the flap. Store in freezer.

Copy above. so 1/4 oz hops will do enough bittering? interesting.

 

[IslandLizard]

I do top off in the fermenter. 2.5 3.5 gallons in the boil.

Yeah, half volume (partial) boils you definitely don't want to add any more than 1 can of extract.

Perhaps only add half a can to reduce caramelization (darkening). Add with heat turned off, stir well to dissolve it all, making sure nothing sticks to the bottom, before turning heat back on.

 

[IslandLizard]

Copy above. so 1/4 oz hops will do enough bittering? interesting.

Yup, 7 grams of Warrior (18% AA), no other hops in the hour long boil. This gets me 14.2 IBU.
Chill to 170F, add 2-3 oz of hops for a 10' hopstand/whirlpool.
Chill to 150F and add 2-3 oz hops for an additional 30' hopstand/whirlpool.
Then chill down to ferm temps, hops remain in kettle.

I dry hop with 2-4oz at the end of fermentation, at around the 50-70% attenuation point, and a 2nd dry hop 2-3 days before kegging with another 2-4 oz. But usually no more than 6 oz of dry hops in total in a 5 gallon batch. Dry hops get stirred 2x a day under CO2.*

They're plenty bitter for the NEIPA style.

Now since you do extract (plus a small partial mash) you can easily boil for only 30 minutes before chilling to the hopstand. Just use a little more bittering hops to get the same bittering level (IBU).

* You need to prevent/seriously limit oxygen exposure after fermentation starts, it kills hop sensation.

 

[IslandLizard]

My biggest fear is over- hopping right out the gate.

If you've had NEIPAs and like them, they're not bitter at all, they're just very hoppy/juicy. That's due to low temp whirlpool additions (much flavor, some aroma) and large dry hop amounts (much aroma, some flavor).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This is what I am doing. I do not have the "steep to convert insert."

Thanks. The missing information in the "steep to convert insert" would have been useful, but the direction of the discussion has moved in different (but good) direction.

Looks like you and @IslandLizard have a good discussion going. And, since 'too many cooks spoil the broth", I'll step aside.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

No, sorry. If you've got some " pale malt", it's hard to know what you have and if they can be steeped or not- but with the oats, it's assumed that you have some pale malt as base grains in there. That's why it needs to be 150-155 for an hour. They must be mashed, and a 10-20 minute steep just won't cut it for conversion.

However, we really need to know what you have for your grains. Can you specify what grains we have to ensure your batch is made appropriately?

IMO, pale malt is not a specialty grain. I gave my answer based on specialty grains.

 

[kh54s10]

Late to this, but IMO there needs to be a mash, not steeping. And I would say that even though this is a commercial kit, it lacks a lot in the way of hops and how to use them for a NEIPA. And btw, I have yet to drink a NEIPA that I come close to liking.

 

[Eric Wann]

Thanks. The missing information in the "steep to convert insert" would have been useful, but the direction of the discussion has moved in different (but good) direction.

Looks like you and @IslandLizard have a good discussion going. And, since 'too many cooks spoil the broth", I'll step aside.

I got the brew shop to send me over the "steep to convert" insert, and it corroborates the mash @ 154 F for about 45 min to an hour so that seems right on.

 

[Eric Wann]

If you've had NEIPAs and like them, they're not bitter at all, they're just very hoppy/juicy. That's due to low temp whirlpool additions (much flavor, some aroma) and large dry hop amounts (much aroma, some flavor).

Last question. If I add 2 lbs of DME to boost the ABV, do I need to add additional hops to balance bittering/flavor???

 

[Eric Wann]

Here is the steep to convert mash info

 

[Yooper]

IMO, pale malt is not a specialty grain. I gave my answer based on specialty grains.

Your opinion is fine.

But "pale malt" is a base malt that all beers are based on, and usually even 50% of wheat beers. Another common name is "two row", but that's not entirely correct actually. "Pale malt" is the common and most correct name for base malt.

Specialty grains include crystal malt, roasted malt, etc. Those are usually labeled as such.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here is the steep to convert mash info

Thanks.

Back in reply #12, the instructions used the phrase "steep to convert", which hinted that the "pale" malt was a base malt that would be needed to get the most out of the flaked oats. These instructions confirm that "steep to convert" is what many in this forum would call a "mash" (converting starches to sugars using enzymes); a "steep" extracts existing sugars, flavors, and colors from the malt, but doesn't involve enzymes to convert starches to sugars.

“Steep-To-Convert” Procedures

Replace Step #3 of the Recommended Procedures

1. Determine water volume For every 2 lbs. of grain included in this recipe pour 1 gallon of water into the brew pot (e.g. if 1.5 lb. of grain are included, begin with 3/4 gallons of water).

2. Steep-To-Convert Pour the crushed grains into the grain bag and tie a loose knot at the top of the bag. Raise the temperature of the water to 155ºF. Place the grain bag into the brew pot. As the grains begin to soak, the water temperature will drop. Carefully monitor the temperature and when it drops below 150ºF add just enough heat to bring the steep water to a range between 148ºF - 152ºF, do not exceed 155ºF. Steep the grains for 45 minutes. Remove the grain bag and without squeezing, allow the liquid to drain back into brew pot.

3. Rinse (optional) Pour approximately 1/2 gallon of 150ºF clean water through the bag allowing the grains to be rinsed back into the liquid wort. 4. Add water Add enough warm water to your wort to bring the volume to 2.5 gallons.

Continue to Step #4 of Recommended Procedures

FWIW, I have seen instructions from other kit makers where the instructions use "steep" where many people in forums would use "mash".

And, like I said earlier, looks like you and @IslandLizard had a good discussion.