sourdough starter from spent grain?

[bernardsmith]

Has anyone tried to make a sourdough starter using grains collected from a mash? I would think that if I soaked a few cupfuls of these spent grains with perhaps the addition of a tablespoonful of DME, in spring water, after three or four days there would be enough lactic bacteria and (hopefully) enough wild yeast to create a sourdough starter that I could use to make bread dough. Am I way off track here? Thanks

 

[Miraculix]

Has anyone tried to make a sourdough starter using grains collected from a mash? I would think that if I soaked a few cupfuls of these spent grains with perhaps the addition of a tablespoonful of DME, in spring water, after three or four days there would be enough lactic bacteria and (hopefully) enough wild yeast to create a sourdough starter that I could use to make bread dough. Am I way off track here? Thanks

Spent grains have been pasteurised during the mash, I'm afraid. So all the natural bugs you want are gone.

 

[bernardsmith]

Spent grains have been pasteurised during the mash, I'm afraid. So all the natural bugs you want are gone.

I agree that the water provides enough heat to pasteurize the mash killing indigenous microbes and fungi but if I allow the loosely covered spent grains to sit for a few days at around 60 F won't bacteria and yeast in the environment glom onto those same grains and the dregs of the sugars in the liquid?

 

[Temptd2]

I haven't tried it however we do a lot of fermenting of veggies and make our own vinegar and you want to make sure you're getting a good strain of yeast going - I might be tempted to add a few ounces of ground organic rye to it - it's supposed to be a good starter grain for sourdough, from what I recall in the past when I made some starters! That's been a long time ago though.

 

[Kent88]

Maybe pull a little wort out after a short acid rest, and replace the water you'd normally mix with flour with that wort? That's what I plan on doing with my next batch.

 

[bernardsmith]

I haven't tried it however we do a lot of fermenting of veggies and make our own vinegar and you want to make sure you're getting a good strain of yeast going - I might be tempted to add a few ounces of ground organic rye to it - it's supposed to be a good starter grain for sourdough, from what I recall in the past when I made some starters! That's been a long time ago though.

Rye is good for a sourdough starter because - I think- rye flour is not usually "bleached" and the bleaching process kills all the bacteria and fungi in wheat flour so unless you use a non bleached flour then it may be a challenge to encourage the dead and dying microbes to revive enough to make a starter. But I have frequently made "rejuvelac" from wheat berries and that is a lacto-bacteria solution made simply by allowing the berries to malt for a few days and then having those malted berries sit under water for another two or three days and the pH of that water is close to 3.00

 

[bernardsmith]

Maybe pull a little wort out after a short acid rest, and replace the water you'd normally mix with flour with that wort? That's what I plan on doing with my next batch.

My plan was close to your idea - but rather than use the "wort" I covered the spent grains with spring water with the idea of pseudo sparging the grains and so my plan was to allow the "sweet" water to sit on these grains for three or four days and then use the water to see if I could ferment a cup of flour and add more flour to that cup and bake with it if there was enough yeast in the sponge. If there was not enough yeast in the sponge there would certainly be (he said) enough lacto-bacteria to make a sour dough and so to make that sour dough into sourdough I intended to add bread yeast. But I was wondering if anyone who brews beer and who bakes bread regularly had ever made a sourdough successfully from the spent grains (which of course can also be added to the dough)..

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree that the water provides enough heat to pasteurize the mash killing indigenous microbes and fungi but if I allow the loosely covered spent grains to sit for a few days at around 60 F won't bacteria and yeast in the environment glom onto those same grains and the dregs of the sugars in the liquid?

Ask any brewer who's accidently left grain in the mash tun what will happen.

They often describe the aroma as approximating a rotting animal carcass.
Mold and Clostridium spp spores survive the pasteurization; those are the two things you absolutely don't want because they pose a health risk.

Skip using spent grain. Pitch a handful of fresh grain into a starter so there's enough LAB to sour it quickly.

 

[bernardsmith]

aha.. Discretion being the better part of valor I think I will terminate this experiment before I make myself, and my family, ill. But both mold and Clostridium will develop even if the grains are submerged under water? And if I remove the grains and allow the mash sweetened water to stand for a few days will that result in the same problem?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Well, I could never say exactly what will happen with a wild culture, but mold is a very high possibility in wild cultures, especially with low starting yeast cell counts. You would see it growing on the surface.

Clostridium growth is much less likely in general because it requires anaerobic conditions and pH not too low, but still theoretically possible. The foul odor usually gives it away, but some sources indicate that it sometimes may not be accompanied by an odor. Still, the potential lethality is concerning.

 

[Kent88]

But don't sourdough starters take about 2 weeks to get the bad bugs under control?

 

[Miraculix]

Ask any brewer who's accidently left grain in the mash tun what will happen.

They often describe the aroma as approximating a rotting animal carcass.
Mold and Clostridium spp spores survive the pasteurization; those are the two things you absolutely don't want because they pose a health risk.

Skip using spent grain. Pitch a handful of fresh grain into a starter so there's enough LAB to sour it quickly.

This, this and this. Do a sourdough starter from plain old full grain flour, skip the spent grain idea, it's not good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

But don't sourdough starters take about 2 weeks to get the bad bugs under control?

Wild cultures do go through stages.
Enteric bacteria and oxidative yeast are fastest growing and produce flavors first, before the LAB and ethanol producing yeast poison them.

In this case it's the partial destruction of the natural balance (killing the yeast and LAB) resulting in favorable conditions for spore-forming organisms that's problematic.

 

[Miraculix]

Wild cultures do go through stages.
Enteric bacteria and oxidative yeast are fastest growing and produce flavors first, before the LAB and ethanol producing yeast poison them.

In this case it's the partial destruction of the natural balance (killing the yeast and LAB) resulting in favorable conditions for spore-forming organisms that's problematic.

Exactly.

I had sourdough which I started just with flour and water myself, kept it going for one or two years. It's really easy, just make a liquid mix from whole grain and best would be organic, spelt, wheat or rye flour, keep it at room temperature and feed it every day a bit more flour and water till it gets bubbly and yeasty and sour.

For the first few rounds of baking with it is usually not satisfying as the yeast is not strong enough, but that will change within a few times using it.

 

[Soulshine2]

Has anyone tried to make a sourdough starter using grains collected from a mash? I would think that if I soaked a few cupfuls of these spent grains with perhaps the addition of a tablespoonful of DME, in spring water, after three or four days there would be enough lactic bacteria and (hopefully) enough wild yeast to create a sourdough starter that I could use to make bread dough. Am I way off track here? Thanks

not sure what it is , but I know when I've left spent (warm and wet) grains in the tun a couple days and then went to dump it out to clean , there was quite an aroma coming off...almost as if it had started a fermentation of its own ...

 

[Soulshine2]

Exactly.

I had sourdough which I started just with flour and water myself, kept it going for one or two years. It's really easy, just make a liquid mix from whole grain and best would be organic, spelt, wheat or rye flour, keep it at room temperature and feed it every day a bit more flour and water till it gets bubbly and yeasty and sour.

For the first few rounds of baking with it is usually not satisfying as the yeast is not strong enough, but that will change within a few times using it.

like that Amish friendship bread everyone was making a few years ago. Water flour and sugar , mush it up in a bag and leave it on the kitchen counter a week. it was good for a couple loaves of the bread but man it had a lot of sugar.
I never thought about something like it for a "sourdough" beer. could be interesting.

Im thinking back now. I DID sort of do this on my first AG batch, the hef. The next day I got up and was about to toss it out when I had the idea to resparge , add a few things and thats when my Moon Over Miami was the result. It was great too. Hmmm , maybe I had a "thing"by sheer luck and didn't even realize it until now. I probably couldnt re-create it if I tried...
or mayyyybeeee

 

[Kent88]

Wild cultures do go through stages.
Enteric bacteria and oxidative yeast are fastest growing and produce flavors first, before the LAB and ethanol producing yeast poison them.

In this case it's the partial destruction of the natural balance (killing the yeast and LAB) resulting in favorable conditions for spore-forming organisms that's problematic.

I assume you are still talking about the original idea to use grain after a long sacch rest? What about using some grain that hasn't gone through pasteurization?

 

[RPh_Guy]

What about using some grain that hasn't gone through pasteurization?

That's perfectly fine

 

[bernardsmith]

No problem.. I bake every week and have a batch of sourdough that I use and I occasionally simply allow the sponge to sour over night before adding more flour to make a dough but the idea of using spent grains just came to me after making a batch of raw ale (no boil). I have some wheat berries that I am sprouting (malting) and so will use these to see if I can harvest enough yeast for a different batch of sour dough.

 

[bracconiere]

if i forget to dump my spent grains for a day or two, they just smell like wet dog....not a flavor i'd want in bread.....

 

[Kent88]

Bernard, you're a pretty curious person. Lots of ideas.

 

[Kent88]

Ask any brewer who's accidently left grain in the mash tun what will happen.

They often describe the aroma as approximating a rotting animal carcass.

not sure what it is , but I know when I've left spent (warm and wet) grains in the tun a couple days and then went to dump it out to clean , there was quite an aroma coming off...almost as if it had started a fermentation of its own ...

if i forget to dump my spent grains for a day or two, they just smell like wet dog....

To me it smells like silage that has gone bad.

 

[munsoncale]

Has anyone tried to make a sourdough starter using grains collected from a mash? I would think that if I soaked a few cupfuls of these spent grains with perhaps the addition of a tablespoonful of DME, in spring water, after three or four days there would be enough lactic bacteria and (hopefully) enough wild yeast to create a sourdough starter that I could use to make bread dough. Am I way off track here? Thanks

I just did this. Started 50/50 split with white unbleached. Once it got going i fed it more spent grain flour. It took pod like whoa