Full Volume Mash vs 1.25 qt

[WileECoyote]

Hello, I have been doing full volume BIAB, and am in the process of gathering the hardware to build a 3 tier brew stand.

The technique I use most of the time when I BIAB is, I fill my pot with the full batch volume of water, withholding 1gal of water (for a rinse/sparge) from my mash, heat to strike temp, add bags of grain, after mashing I raise temp to 168 for 10 min, then rinse grain.

I plan on using a ice chest for my mash tun.

My question's are ?

Why when people use a mash tun do they only use 1.25qt water per lb of grain, any reason other than withholding for a sparge ?

I am considering adding 60% of my water into the mash tun for the mash, then adding 30% for the 168 deg step, then draining tun, then rinsing with the last 10%.

This is what I would rather do, I have read the rinse is a waste of time ?
Or just going with adding 70%, then adding 30%, skipping the rinse altogether.

Also would it better to drain tun after each step, or not? and why?

Are there any reason/reasons why I shouldn't go with one of the two process above ? for me, it would kinda be like doing BIAB without the bags.

Thanks for the help

Cheers

 

[stratslinger]

It sounds kind of like you're talking about batch sparging here, so I'll share my general technique...

I typically shoot for 1.25qts per lb, like you described. Generally speaking, you can use anywhere from 1-2qts per lb just fine, but 1.25 seems to work well for me. It leaves plenty of room for me to add hot or cold water for temperature corrections, mainly.

Now, keep in mind that the grain is going to absorb some of your water and not give it back - so if you really put 60% of your boil volume into strike water, then sparged with a total of 40% of your boil volume, you'll come up short in boil volume, since your run-off from your initial mash is only probably going to give you 40-50% of your volume instead of that whole 60%.

Anyway - back to my process:

Mash with 1.25qts per lb, make temperature corrections if necessary. Then take your first runnings after the mash rest is done and check your volume in the kettle (BeerSmith is great for this, as it calculates the water absorbtion due to grain for you). Take your expected boil volume, subtract the volume of your first runnings, and divide that by two. Now, I sparge with two batch sparges of that volume, leaving me in the end with my expected boil volume.

I do find that I get a bit of extra efficiency from splitting the sparge into two batches, though your mileage may vary.

 

[Bensiff]

There is not much literature that actually suggests that mash thickness really impacts anything (just some unsubstantiated internet lore about fermentability differences) so feel free to play around with it. It ultimately gets down to what works for you. As far as your 1st mash regiment, you are almost batch sparging and will leave more sugars behind than you would if you fly sparged...but, the bonus is you are less likely to over extract the grain and will save a lot of time in your brew day. I wouldn't drain after each step, just mash, recirc, begin drawing off to the BK while adding the rinse water.

Either way you do it, it will work just fine and I can think of no reason one would be superior to the other.

 

[eric19312]

There is not much literature that actually suggests that mash thickness really impacts anything (just some unsubstantiated internet lore about fermentability differences) so feel free to play around with it. It ultimately gets down to what works for you. As far as your 1st mash regiment, you are almost batch sparging and will leave more sugars behind than you would if you fly sparged...but, the bonus is you are less likely to over extract the grain and will save a lot of time in your brew day. I wouldn't drain after each step, just mash, recirc, begin drawing off to the BK while adding the rinse water.

Either way you do it, it will work just fine and I can think of no reason one would be superior to the other.

This study is out there...
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing

Kai's results confirmed cited results that mash thickness didn't effect fermentability. But he did see increase in efficiency with thinner mash.

My strategy so far is 1.5 qt/lb, batch sparge with single sparge. I usually add water to mash before collecting first runnings so that I get the same volume of run-off from first and second runnings. I'm curious about the efficiency bump fro splitting the sparge water into 2 additions and running off separately, am guessing in range of 2-4% but verifying experimentally on full batches sounds challanging.

 

[Bobby_M]

Factors to consider:

Low enzymatic (high adjunct) grain bills can take longer to convert in a full volume mash.
Less effect of pH buffering. If your water is ill suited for the grain bill, a full volume mash is going to swing you out of pH range (possibly).
Unless you're using a grain bag ala BIAB process to squeeze out as much liquid as possible, your efficiency will be significantly lower than a thick mash, large sparge.

 

[MuddyCreek]

You know I have been struggling to dial in my efficiency. I was using the 1.3 quart/pound ratio along with a manual herms (I turn the pump on when the temp starts to drop...) I preheated the tun, got the liquor inside to strike temperature and then added the grain and tried to maintain temperature and my efficiency was always terrible.

Then I decided to add highly crushed grain to 80 degree liquor, fill the cooler almost to the top (7 gallon cooler obviously for 5 gallon batches) and then start the herms pump to begin raising the temp. I let the mash sit for about 15 minutes at 125 and then continue raising temp to my target mash temperature.

After mash I turn the pump on again and heat everything up to mash-out.

I then take a gallon or so of the first running and pour them back into the mash (although I'm not convinced this is completely necessary given the fact that I run the herms pump and am essentially recirculating through a good part of the mash, particularly at the end for mash-out.)

Then I draw first runnings, and add water for 2 batch sparges again, running the herms pump to get the temperatures up to mash-out and then letting the mash sit for about 15 or 20 minutes before I drain the runnings into the BK. (obviously since I do 2 sparges, I put in 1/2 the water needed for pre-boil volume completion in each time...)

All told it takes some time, but man, has my efficiency gone up. I was literally down in the 50s and low 60s and my last couple batches are up in the high 80s and 90s now.

 

[bigdongsr94]

Bobby-m's second point is what concerned me. If you already did full volume BIAB then keep doing your same full volume recipes. But if you have never mashed that thin, you can def run into pH issues. My full vol BIAB problems have been diailing my water to account for high pH when using full volume. If you mash thicker your pH issues go down significantly. I simply use one vessel so I didn't want to sparge and that had given me more issues and dumped beer due to high pH then I would like to recall. So efficiency aside, the beer needs to be drinkable so worry about that first.

 

[WileECoyote]

Thank You everyone, this is really helping me get figured out how and what to do when I get the brew stand done.

Yes I did mean batch sparging, and I forgot to state that Im using/learning BeerSmith, and did know about it correcting for grain absorption.

Everything seems easy enough and the explanations have been very helpful.

I guess in my way of thinking I like using gallons instead of quarts.

First Ill say, some of my brews are coming out tasting great, others still tweaking the hops and or grain flavor mix, now on to what I was going to say, To be honest, I have never checked my PH levels, guess I better read up on that too, so what PH level am I looking for ?

Thanks and Cheers

 

[WileECoyote]

Bobby-m's second point is what concerned me. If you already did full volume BIAB then keep doing your same full volume recipes. But if you have never mashed that thin, you can def run into pH issues. My full vol BIAB problems have been diailing my water to account for high pH when using full volume. If you mash thicker your pH issues go down significantly. I simply use one vessel so I didn't want to sparge and that had given me more issues and dumped beer due to high pH then I would like to recall. So efficiency aside, the beer needs to be drinkable so worry about that first.

Hello, what dose high PH taste like in a beer ? Im assuming that it affects the flavor/taste from your post.

Cheers

 

[acidrain]

Hello, what dose high PH taste like in a beer ? Im assuming that it affects the flavor/taste from your post.

Cheers

Grains are acidic, and when mixed with water make a wort that has an acidic PH.
Most tap water is PH neutral, or slightly alkaline.
The thinner the mash, the more alkaline the mash will be.
If the mash is too alkaline, the more likely tanins will be extracted, and efficiency will drop.
Different beer styles lend themselves to different water profiles, and therefore different PH's, but for arguments sake, let's say you're going for a mash PH of 5.4.
At 1.3 gts. per lb of grain, the PH may be perfect, but start thinning that out with full volume mashing, then other things can happen.

 

[hops2it]

I always tick the option in Beersmith to batch sparge using equal sized batches (or similar wording). It'll adjust the water to grain ratio accordingly. Depending on the size of grain bill, most generally I end up with something in the 1.25-1.50 range.

 

[WileECoyote]

I always tick the option in Beersmith to batch sparge using equal sized batches (or similar wording). It'll adjust the water to grain ratio accordingly. Depending on the size of grain bill, most generally I end up with something in the 1.25-1.50 range.

I might have to try that out.

Cheers

 

[Weezy]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately on a similarly aligned subject. The concern should be pH and temperature for the mash process. You must do your best to maintain those two things in the appropriate ranges.






If you do that, your process can vary quite widely to suit your needs and equipment. I recommend doing some google searches for mash pH, tannin extraction, phenolics extraction.

Here's a good one:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/06/19/phenolics-and-tannins-in-home-brewed-beer/

And large volumes of water, I believe, help buffer the pH moreso than raising it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful. There is the traditional argument that you're diluting the wort such that the released enzymes have a harder time finding the starches to make the sugars. But there are a lot of people doing full volume BIAB mashes and getting very good efficiency, so I'm not certain how strong this argument is. You'll also resources stating to stop sparging when the SG gets down to 1.008 or 1.010. This relates to the pH surely getting above the acceptable range since there is so little wort in the water (and this is certainly much, much lower than any full volume BIAB mash process).

 

[WileECoyote]

Hello Weezy, great charts, thanks for the info, In 1 minute looking at them I have learned that I need to mash my wheat brews a few degrees lower to be safe.

Cheers