Help with my water, please

[dmcclain]

I don't have the entire profile, yet. I have emailed the local utility and this is what I have so far...

Soduim 116
Calcium 43
Magnesium 100+
Alk 224
PH 8.0

I know I can change the PH, but the Mag level is what has me worried. Is there anything I can do to lower it? What is the effect of Magnesium on my brew? I'm just now looking at water chemistry after switching to all grain brewing a few months ago. I have 5 batches brewed with this water. An IPA that wasn't bad for my first AG and I didn't notice any off flavors. A Cream Ale that has a bit of a bite at the end (i'm guessing mash ph) and IPA, Stout and Cream that haven't been tapped yet. Thanks for any help or advice you can offer.

Edit... I have added Campden to my last 3 batches (untapped so far) as I found out that there is chloramine in the water as well. I don't know how this effects the numbers above, but felt it might be pertinent.

 

[dmcclain]

Nevermind... I'm going to use RO water from Walmart and add gypsum, calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate and lactic acid. The EZ water spreadsheet is awesome!

 

[Yooper]

Nevermind... I'm going to use RO water from Walmart and add gypsum, calcium chloride, magnesium sulfate and lactic acid. The EZ water spreadsheet is awesome!

RO water is a good choice. I wouldn't recommend magnesium sulfate, though. You don't need it for magnesium (malt has plenty), and if you're using gypsum you won't need the sulfate either.

I haven't had good luck with the EZ spreadsheet accurately predicting mash pH, but it's good for figuring mineral additions.

 

[mabrungard]

100 ppm magnesium is not typical for groundwater in the Indy area. Are you sure its not 100 ppb? That would be 0.1 ppm which is also not typical of the area (too low). The sodium content is high for groundwater in the area too. I'm skeptical of the values you've been quoted.

 

[dmcclain]

From my understanding, the water utility in Bargersville attempts to soften the water. My guess is that the sodium is a residual from that process. I would think the low calcium might be an indicator of this as well. I questioned the Mag also and was told that was ppm and the info is from the manager of the treatment facility that services my home address. He could be wrong, but I don't know a better source for the information without sending a sample off to a lab. Regardless, the numbers have me thinking that using RO and having more control is a better way to go. Maybe a few $$ more per batch, but $.37 a gallon from Walmart and few grams/ml of additives isn't going to break me.

Yooper... I was planning to measure the mash ph to be sure. Thanks for the Water Chemistry Primer! That was most helpful. Is there a way to calculate the amount of Magnesium you will get out of the grains in a recipe? Or is it just safe to assume that no matter what you'll get over 10ppm and be ok?

On a side note... I'm looking at a recipe you posted for an Arrogant Bastard clone in Nov 2007. Have you made any changes to that one? I'm thinking about making a run at it next month.

Cheers!
Dave

 

[mabrungard]

Dave, Carmel does ion-exchange softening of it's water supply also. The sodium would reflect that. However, both calcium and magnesium are effectively removed in the ion-exchange process, so I expect that the Mg should be lower than reported.

 

[Yooper]

From my understanding, the water utility in Bargersville attempts to soften the water. My guess is that the sodium is a residual from that process. I would think the low calcium might be an indicator of this as well. I questioned the Mag also and was told that was ppm and the info is from the manager of the treatment facility that services my home address. He could be wrong, but I don't know a better source for the information without sending a sample off to a lab. Regardless, the numbers have me thinking that using RO and having more control is a better way to go. Maybe a few $$ more per batch, but $.37 a gallon from Walmart and few grams/ml of additives isn't going to break me.

Yooper... I was planning to measure the mash ph to be sure. Thanks for the Water Chemistry Primer! That was most helpful. Is there a way to calculate the amount of Magnesium you will get out of the grains in a recipe? Or is it just safe to assume that no matter what you'll get over 10ppm and be ok?

On a side note... I'm looking at a recipe you posted for an Arrogant Bastard clone in Nov 2007. Have you made any changes to that one? I'm thinking about making a run at it next month.

Cheers!
Dave

mabrungard is the water expert, so he'll have to answer the question about the amount of magnesium for sure. I use RO water, and don't add epsom salts ever, but that doesn't mean it's always right! I know in smaller amounts, an addition of epsom salts can enhance the "bite" of the hops, but in larger amounts it is a laxative- so I just don't use it and I'm happy with the results.

The AB clone is still the same one I use.

 

[dmcclain]

mabrungard is the water expert, so he'll have to answer the question about the amount of magnesium for sure. I use RO water, and don't add epsom salts ever, but that doesn't mean it's always right! I know in smaller amounts, an addition of epsom salts can enhance the "bite" of the hops, but in larger amounts it is a laxative- so I just don't use it and I'm happy with the results.

The AB clone is still the same one I use.

I've noticed quite a "bite" so far in the two batches I've been able to drink with this water. The IPA wasn't half bad, but the Cream Ale suffered from it. Hopefully the Stout (secondary), IPA (Kegged) and Cream Ale (primary) aren't dumpers because of it. I'm sorry for all of the questions, but... If I only treat my mash water (5.75 gallons) with 4g of gypsum, 4g of Calcium Chloride and 2ml of Lactic Acid and then run my sparge (3.05 gallons) with straight RO water, is that a problem or do I need to distribute the additives evenly throughout my water? Thanks!

 

[dmcclain]

Dave, Carmel does ion-exchange softening of it's water supply also. The sodium would reflect that. However, both calcium and magnesium are effectively removed in the ion-exchange process, so I expect that the Mg should be lower than reported.

Martin, I've reached out again and asked about the Mg level. If they truly are that high, you'd think we'd have a run on Immodium here on the southside. I just moved out of Indy and into Bargersville in January so maybe I'm just not feeling the effects yet. Thanks for your help. I'll let you know if I'm given any more useful information from the utility.

 

[mabrungard]

Good point about the need for Immodium if the Mg level was really that high. The water wouldn't taste very good either. I would expect that the problems noted with the beers were largely due to the elevated alkalinity that the tap water has. The softening process leaves the alkalinity high and reduces the Ca and Mg content. This magnifies the alkalinity in the brewing process and the mash pH is typically too high. That causes all sorts of harsh flavor effects. Do visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water site for more info.

 

[Yooper]

I've noticed quite a "bite" so far in the two batches I've been able to drink with this water. The IPA wasn't half bad, but the Cream Ale suffered from it. Hopefully the Stout (secondary), IPA (Kegged) and Cream Ale (primary) aren't dumpers because of it. I'm sorry for all of the questions, but... If I only treat my mash water (5.75 gallons) with 4g of gypsum, 4g of Calcium Chloride and 2ml of Lactic Acid and then run my sparge (3.05 gallons) with straight RO water, is that a problem or do I need to distribute the additives evenly throughout my water? Thanks!

That's what I do. I treat my mash water, and sparge with 100% RO water usually.

You can treat all of the water the same, and that would work too.

I just can't usually fit all of my water in the HLT at the same time, so I add my salts (and any acid) to the mash and keep RO water in the HLT. That's why I sparge with 100% RO water.

 

[dmcclain]

Thank you for all the help!