To boil or not to boil Coopers kits?

Brewer's Friend 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
B

badbaker44

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Pretty much a newbie here. Have made a couple batches and just finished drinking my keg of Coopers English bitter. I really enjoyed it and boiled the kit for an hour with 10 liters of water and 1 kg of DME. Added 9 liters of cold water to chill it down, pitched some Nottingham yeast and fermented it in the primary for three week before I kegged it and added Co2.

Here is my question - do I need to boil it or not? I have done a Munton's kit twice without the boil and got a really "cidery" tasting beer that wasnt drinkable. I also used 500 grams of DME and 500 grams of dextrose. Could the off flavors come from an infection or from the dextrose?

I have gone to boiling the extract because my buddy has be doing it this way for years and he brews some really good beers from extract kits.

I would really appreciate some feedback.

Thanks,

Ian
 
A pre hoped extract in a can is different than a extract kit. Pre hoped extract i would not boil. You will lose all your hops flavor,bitterness and aroma. If you really want to make quality beer with extract. Go with a custom kit.
 
Never boil pre-hopped extracts,dry or liquid! It converts the flavor & aroma hops to bittering,ruining the flavor profile. Not to mention,the LME style cans will also darken & get that twang from mailard reactions. I use the plain DME in the boil for hop additions,adding the remaining extracts at flame out.
This gets rid of the twang,giving better flavor & keeps the color lighter as intended.
 
I have been brewing coopers kits for many years and you do not want to boil the kits. You just need to open the can and dump it in the fermentor. Boiling it will darken the malt and mess with the hops which have allready been boiled into the extract.
 
When I'm doing a Coopers Kit based recipe that doesn't involve grain or hops the only thing I boil is my counter top kettle.

I put about 2 litres of just boiled water in my fermenter to dissolve any dry ingredients. While I'm doing this I boil the kettle again. Once the dry ingredients are dissolved and the LME from the kit is mixed into the fermenter I used the boiled water from the kettle to rinse out the can. Once again I top up the kettle and turn it on to boil another 2 litres. This last 2 litres is only used if I need to make temperature adjustments when topping off the fermenter. The reason I boil water for temperature adjustment instead of using the hot water tap is because I have a decent charcoal filter on the cold water line in my kitchen. I prefer all my "beer making" water come from that faucet

Technically you could do the whole process with water that is close to your fermentation temperature but it would be a real pain in the ass to get everything dissolved and mixed up properly.
 
Wow thanks to everyone who has responded to my questions. The reason I boiled the extract kit was when I make the extract kits with just boiled water from a kettle they turned out horrible! I think I may have had an infection but who knows? They were watery and they had a very distinct "cidery" taste with off Flavors. I am an artisan baker so I very much understand the Maillard reaction and how boiling will darken the malt due to this reaction. I didn't really mind this as I have been making dark beers only.

Here is another question - could I bring my water to a boil on my stove, flame out an add 500 grams DME and 500 grams dextrose as well as the can of coppers extract? Mix them all together and add them to my fermenter, as enough cold water to bring down the temp and pitch yeast at appropriate temp?

I want to make a Mexican Cervasa an I want that lighter color. I am thinking if I don't boil the can but add the DME an dextrose at flame out with the can I should get a decent beer?

Thanks for any and all input.

Ian
 
Good question, that's what I have been asking myself. Could have the dextrose done this? I have read that it could... I have avoided using it in batches after these and have not had that flavour. I used the yeast from under the lid and didn't hydrate it in water first, just dry pitched it. no longer do this and no longer use the yeast from the can. I have switched to Nottingham ale yeast that i hydrate first before pitching. I have also use some smack packs and have liked the results. Maybe the wort was too warm when I pitched the yeast and perhaps gave me these "cidery" notes? Like I said earlier, the beer was just undrinkable in every way!

Like bread baking, brewing has so many variables and I am trying to understand them all.

Thanks for all the input as I really appreciate it all!

Ian
 
I havent made a ton of brews yet but the ones I have made have never had more than 8 oz of dextrose, that must have been the problem imo.
 
when doing extracts my experience was a 60 minute boil produced darker beers than what i was shooting for like when brewing a hefe or wit or a pale ale.....

came up with this solution which helped quite a bit.

i would begin a seperate pellet hop boil in a closed sauce pan to prevent water & aroma loss......
begin my grain seepage or just plain extract waters at the same time....depending on whether I was grain seeping which takes longer when factoring in the sparge or just doing a plain DME or LME brew i could time it out where the malt was held at 180 - 200 last 20 minutes. if timed correctly the hop had done their 60 minute boil so i would strain off the tea from the sauce pan then rinse the residue with some heated water and add to malt which is approaching 3 gallons by this time.
if the recipe called for aroma i'd just throw those hops in cut heat and cover let stand for 10-15 minutes.
cold crash into 2.5 gallon of icey water carboy setting in an ice bath and WA LA...

my beers were more correct to color and the quality was the same as if i had boiled them for an hour.

this method requires some time management but so will A.G. once you evolve to that level....

hope this helps someone.....

GD:mug:
 
I can't say I've ever boiled an extract but I don't think you'd see any benefits if you did, when I've used Coopers kits I just shoved them in the fermenter with cold water
 
gizmodog51 said:
when doing extracts my experience was a 60 minute boil produced darker beers than what i was shooting for like when brewing a hefe or wit or a pale ale.....

came up with this solution which helped quite a bit.

i would begin a seperate pellet hop boil in a closed sauce pan to prevent water & aroma loss......
begin my grain seepage or just plain extract waters at the same time....depending on whether I was grain seeping which takes longer when factoring in the sparge or just doing a plain DME or LME brew i could time it out where the malt was held at 180 - 200 last 20 minutes. if timed correctly the hop had done their 60 minute boil so i would strain off the tea from the sauce pan then rinse the residue with some heated water and add to malt which is approaching 3 gallons by this time.
if the recipe called for aroma i'd just throw those hops in cut heat and cover let stand for 10-15 minutes.
cold crash into 2.5 gallon of icey water carboy setting in an ice bath and WA LA...

my beers were more correct to color and the quality was the same as if i had boiled them for an hour.

this method requires some time management but so will A.G. once you evolve to that level....

hope this helps someone.....

GD:mug:
Click to expand...

Some things are wrong here,besides making more work for yourself. Steep & sparge your crushed grains,to get 3 gallons or a bit more of water (i do 3.5G in a 5G kettle). Then add 1.5-2lbs plain DME stiring well to dissolve clumps. Then toss in the bittering addition & start timer for 60 minutes. Then do flavor & aroma additions per recipe in the boil. You can't really steep flavor additions,they must be boiled. I add remaining extracts at flame out stirring to dissolve,cover & steep for a few minutes to pasteurize. since the wort's still boiling hot at this point,& pasteurization happens about 162F,it takes a very short time to accomplish before the wort chill.
 
unionrdr said:
Some things are wrong here,besides making more work for yourself. Steep & sparge your crushed grains,to get 3 gallons or a bit more of water (i do 3.5G in a 5G kettle). Then add 1.5-2lbs plain DME stiring well to dissolve clumps. Then toss in the bittering addition & start timer for 60 minutes. Then do flavor & aroma additions per recipe in the boil. You can't really steep flavor additions,they must be boiled. I add remaining extracts at flame out stirring to dissolve,cover & steep for a few minutes to pasteurize. since the wort's still boiling hot at this point,& pasteurization happens about 162F,it takes a very short time to accomplish before the wort chill.
Click to expand...

in the immortal words of RM Nixon..."let me make myself perfectly clear";)

hops for bittering (60m) are boiled in the sauce pan of water which is started about 15 minutes before heating the grain water for seepage of grain.....or sooner if just using DME or LME. the hops boil in the water just as they would in wort.
after collecting the sparge /rinse water off the grains if used, then the malt is added to this liquid. i strain the hop tea into the 5gallon pot to avoid all the trub from pellet hops.....if aroma hops are needed, i either throw them in on the last 10 minutes or boil them for in water and add the tea at the end.

the wort usually stays between 170-200 degrees. depending on the style of the product.
i have had success with this method...worth the extra step to achieve very little hop trub in the fermenter and enough hop flavor & aroma for what i'm shooting for.
yes, you are correct, hops must be boiled to rupture the plant cell to release the oils for bittering.

hope i cleared this up...the only extra step is the hop tea boil which is going on as everything else is falling into place....... the hop tea adds about half qt which tops off at 5.5 in the 6 gallon ferments give or take a cup.

cheers, :)

GD51:mug:
 
I understand what you said the first time. It's just a little off. I've done hop teas,& they're ok,but you need a little malt to improve the process. And you could just use muslin hop socks to keep the hop trub contained. The hops have to be boiled longer than 15 minutes for bittering,tea water or wort.
So they need to be boiled for not just bittering,but flavor as well. Boil longer for bittering,less for flavor & aroma. & 170-200F isn't boiling...unless you're way high up someplace. So flavor hops boil for 25 down to about 10 minutes. Aroma hops 2-5 minutes left in the boil.
So I understand,nothing to clear up with my understanding. It's just some of the things you're doing make more work or aren't quite correct for excepted brewing,hopping etc practices.
 
I couldn't move away from the Coopers kits fast enough. I did 2 of the 'just add water' kits and they turned out terrible. I figured moving on to extract and partials required very little more equipment and the beer I make has vastly improved.
 
unionrdr said:
I understand what you said the first time. It's just a little off. I've done hop teas,& they're ok,but you need a little malt to improve the process. And you could just use muslin hop socks to keep the hop trub contained. The hops have to be boiled longer than 15 minutes for bittering,tea water or wort.
So they need to be boiled for not just bittering,but flavor as well. Boil longer for bittering,less for flavor & aroma. & 170-200F isn't boiling...unless you're way high up someplace. So flavor hops boil for 25 down to about 10 minutes. Aroma hops 2-5 minutes left in the boil.
So I understand,nothing to clear up with my understanding. It's just some of the things you're doing make more work or aren't quite correct for excepted brewing,hopping etc practices.
Click to expand...

yes you are right, though i do boil (60m) on the bitter hop just in a pan and start the boil 15 minutes a head of the grain seepage water etc, etc...never met a muslin bag that didn't leak pellet hops...now I use voile but i also BIAB too so now the hops are bagged in the wort for the boil.

thanx for sharing some good stuff.........)

GD51 :mug:
 
Just tryin to help. I do get a little of the grainy hop stuff going through the muslin hop sacks,but not very much. Maybe a pinch in the strainer going into the FV. Got my grains & hops out of the fridge & freezer warming up now to start a PM NZ IPA now. I'll finally have all those NZ hops used up that've been in the freezer for months on end.
 
right behind you.......

my A.G. la petite orange is carbonating and the tripel is waitng patiently in the cooler at 38' to be racked and carbed.
next will be N.B.'s A.G. recipe of their cream ale.
my friend brewed this for his ol'lady and it is an excellent session beer!
introduced it to me yesterday and normally i do not care for clear pale ales of this style, usually too hoppy for me...(except for belgian or german wheat beers).... but this cream ale was amazing......:drunk:

brew -on!:rockin:

GD51:mug:
 
From Coopers FAQ
http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewe...-faqs#/Should_I_boil_the_kit_to_remove_break?

We brew beer, malt extract and beer kit wort in the same way. All worts are boiled and produce hot break, which is then removed in the whirlpool. Rather than being cooled down for fermentation, the malt extract and beer kit worts are centrifuged and transferred to evaporators where all but around 20% of the water is removed. At this stage the malt extract or beer kit wort is packaged then it cools down but does not throw cold break material because the extract is too dense for it to precipitate. Once you add water, the wort becomes thin enough for the break material to precipitate. This break material is completely harmless to the brew and will settle out during fermentation. If boiled the break material may clump together giving the impression, incorrectly, that it is hot break. Boiling a beer kit (hopped malt extract) will only darken the brew and drive off hop aroma. However, if you are following a specific recipe and using additional hops, you may like to boil some of the malt extract to achieve the expected hop utilisation for correct aroma, flavour and bitterness in the finished beer.
 
Yeah,if you're making a darker beer & doing bittering,flavor,& aroma additions to make a different beer out of it. Otherwise,if you want lighter color & the original profile added to the complexities you're brewing into it,don't boil the pre-hopped cans. I don't.
 
Regarding the cidery taste you got with the Muntons kits, the problem could be the Muntons kits. They don't recommend the use of DME with their cheapest kits, as their standard yeast has difficulty fermenting anything but dextrose (which may have more to do with the small amount they provide, and the age of the kit by the time it gets to you, then the actual yeast; their yeast is repackaged Safbrew S-33). If you want to add DME, which is a good idea, substitute another yeast (which you have already started to do). In addition, their kits tend to have very high IBUs. I have never had much luck with their base kits and avoid them now, but I like their Connoisseurs Range.

Regarding your plan, yes you could do it that way, but it is more work and could lead to hot side aeration and foaming. DaNewf's method is better. Using boiled water to dissolve the DME helps to pasteurize (which needs temps above 170F) it. My method is almost identical but I wait with adding the extract from the can until the temp in the FV has dropped to 120F, to expose it to less heat. When adding cold water to bring the temp down, don't use a spray hose to introduce it into the FV, as this will cause foaming. Use a large, sanitized plastic bottle to collect the cold water, shake the dickens out of it to dissolve some oxygen into it, then carefully pour it down with side wall of the FV.
 
badbaker44 said:
Wow thanks to everyone who has responded to my questions. The reason I boiled the extract kit was when I make the extract kits with just boiled water from a kettle they turned out horrible! I think I may have had an infection but who knows? They were watery and they had a very distinct "cidery" taste with off Flavors. I am an artisan baker so I very much understand the Maillard reaction and how boiling will darken the malt due to this reaction. I didn't really mind this as I have been making dark beers only.

Here is another question - could I bring my water to a boil on my stove, flame out an add 500 grams DME and 500 grams dextrose as well as the can of coppers extract? Mix them all together and add them to my fermenter, as enough cold water to bring down the temp and pitch yeast at appropriate temp?

I want to make a Mexican Cervasa an I want that lighter color. I am thinking if I don't boil the can but add the DME an dextrose at flame out with the can I should get a decent beer?

Thanks for any and all input.

Ian
Click to expand...

Yes you can. My wife loves the Coopers Mex Cerveza, I do a 30 minute boil with a couple lbs of light LME and 1 0z hersbrucker hops, then add the canned hopped extract at flameout. If you don't do a hops add then boil the water, add the other stuff at flameout, cool, top-off, add some yeast, and seal it up in the fermenter.
 
ukulele01 said:
Regarding the cidery taste you got with the Muntons kits, the problem could be the Muntons kits. They don't recommend the use of DME with their cheapest kits, as their standard yeast has difficulty fermenting anything but dextrose (which may have more to do with the small amount they provide, and the age of the kit by the time it gets to you, then the actual yeast; their yeast is repackaged Safbrew S-33). If you want to add DME, which is a good idea, substitute another yeast (which you have already started to do). In addition, their kits tend to have very high IBUs. I have never had much luck with their base kits and avoid them now, but I like their Connoisseurs Range.

Regarding your plan, yes you could do it that way, but it is more work and could lead to hot side aeration and foaming. DaNewf's method is better. Using boiled water to dissolve the DME helps to pasteurize (which needs temps above 170F) it. My method is almost identical but I wait with adding the extract from the can until the temp in the FV has dropped to 120F, to expose it to less heat. When adding cold water to bring the temp down, don't use a spray hose to introduce it into the FV, as this will cause foaming. Use a large, sanitized plastic bottle to collect the cold water, shake the dickens out of it to dissolve some oxygen into it, then carefully pour it down with side wall of the FV.
Click to expand...

I've been given to know that pasteurization in our instances happens at 160F in seconds. I add remaining DME & all LME at flame out while it's still boiling hot. It not only dissolves easier,but,as I said with pasteurization happening @ 160F,& the wort being at at least 190F yet,flame out additions are fine & work great for me. When the BK is off the heat,it's still being boiling hot won't hurt it,since the heat is no longer constantly held. I then leave it covered to steep a couple minutes before the ice bath to pasteurize a bit. Chill it down to about 75F,then strain into the FV. Top off with water that's chilled in the fridge a day or two. Stir roughly for a few minutes to mix wort & top off. Take gravity sample & pitch yeast,& seal'er up. A little foaming is a sure sign that it's geting o2 mixed in,which is a good thing before yeast is pitched. It needs more air mixed in when mixing the wort & top off in the fermenter. The reason being that the boiling process drives off dissolved o2 in the wort.
 
Well, depending on the OG before you add dextrose, adding much could significantly boost your ABV. That wouldn't cause so much a cidery taste as a stronger "alcohol" taste in the beer. Is it possible that's what you're tasting?
 
I boiled a Coopers Ale can with 1oz Centennial Hops and 2lbs LDME.
Its a lot bitterer than expected due to the boiling, but after four weeks in the bottle its a fantastic drink.
 
That's due to the fact that any flavor/aroma additions to the can were turned into bittering by boiling it. Adding a bittering addition of your own compounded the effect. Not to mention,darkening it.
 
unionrdr said:
I've been given to know that pasteurization in our instances happens at 160F in seconds. I add remaining DME & all LME at flame out while it's still boiling hot. It not only dissolves easier,but,as I said with pasteurization happening @ 160F,& the wort being at at least 190F yet,flame out additions are fine & work great for me. When the BK is off the heat,it's still being boiling hot won't hurt it,since the heat is no longer constantly held. I then leave it covered to steep a couple minutes before the ice bath to pasteurize a bit. Chill it down to about 75F,then strain into the FV. Top off with water that's chilled in the fridge a day or two. Stir roughly for a few minutes to mix wort & top off. Take gravity sample & pitch yeast,& seal'er up. A little foaming is a sure sign that it's geting o2 mixed in,which is a good thing before yeast is pitched. It needs more air mixed in when mixing the wort & top off in the fermenter. The reason being that the boiling process drives off dissolved o2 in the wort.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you, one certainly needs to introduce a good amount of O2 to support yeast growth. But my understanding is that one should do what one can to limit foaming during the brewing stage, as do commercial brewers, as it uses up proteins that could otherwise be used to create "beer head," aka foam, in the finished product. So the trick is to add O2 while causing as little foaming as possible. But it is only one of many factors in the creation of beer head. http://byo.com/stories/item/693-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques
 
Another thing to remember when using pre-hopped malt type kits is the water. I only use RO water with them since the water profile is important when making your wort and this has already been done making the LME or DME.

bosco
 
ukulele01 said:
I don't disagree with you, one certainly needs to introduce a good amount of O2 to support yeast growth. But my understanding is that one should do what one can to limit foaming during the brewing stage, as do commercial brewers, as it uses up proteins that could otherwise be used to create "beer head," aka foam, in the finished product. So the trick is to add O2 while causing as little foaming as possible. But it is only one of many factors in the creation of beer head. http://byo.com/stories/item/693-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques
Click to expand...

The thing you have to remember here is that the wort got foamed up from whipping air into it,which settles back into the wort. It's krausen that contains some dissolved protiens. So whipping air into the wort won't remove protiens needed for head. Crystal malts,carapils,malto dextrin & the like add some back for head retention,foam stability & mouth feel. I get plenty of head quite easilly,even though I use super moss 10 minutes left in the boil.
 

Similar threads

Luxy
Beer enhancer required if brewing purely from DME?
Replies
37
Views
2K
Rish
R
F
no boil prehopped beer kits
4 5 6
Replies
231
Views
13K
Rish
R
Luxy
Commercial extract vs bulk extract
Replies
22
Views
2K
Luxy
Luxy
Gytaryst
First Brew in 5 years - I Have Questions
Replies
14
Views
867
Gytaryst
Gytaryst
SipalayBrew
Coopers DIY Beer Stout: Need your help, guys!
Replies
7
Views
927
BreweyMcHops
B
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top