home brewer laws

[ntbritton]

So i actually called the Nebraska department number for this topic, and was told we really don't monitor or worry about how much you brew, just that you don't sell it. There is no Nebraska statue for volume, because its at the federal level, you would need to call them to understand what household refers to. So off i go to find that number.

I guess i assumed even the state guys would understand the federal statue that they fall under, but apparently i was wrong on that one.

 

[finsfan]

see, you called them and all they said was "we dont care how much you brew, just dont sell!" that is enough for me to conclude this is never monitored, but the sale of illegal alcohol is monitored by the ATF, so dont do that and you'll be fine!

 

[ntbritton]

Right on Finsfan. Its not that i really care, but i do like to crasp new understandings that this fine world has to offer us.

 

[finsfan]

well it is kinda important to know the legalities of it for people who do plan on brewing close to the "limit" or over, apparently they did not need to create a limit if they are not going to enforce it haha o well more brew for us! cheers

 

[ntbritton]

You are exactly right! I do plan to report back after i call the feds.

 

[finsfan]

haha im not sure i will ever say that last sentence, at least hopefully not!

 

[SoonerDoc]

If he never comes back, at least we can find his mugshot online to create "Free ntbritton!" T-shirts.

 

[ntbritton]

So lunch is over and i had a very informative interesting chat with the feds.

So it is 100/200 per place it is brewed. So no matter how many freinds Fred has over and they pitch their own yeast it would go against the homeowners brew limit.

Now the other catch is its based on "produced". So i asked what is the legal definition of produced? It is a finished product drinkable beer. So is the beer finished when its carbed or done fermenting. I did not think to ask. I would think carbed because it is not a finished product until it has been carbed.

So Fred could have his friends over and brew, ferment and keg or bottle, as long as it leaves before it is ready to drink it would not be considered produced. Now Fred has only "produced" what he gives away to family and friends.

Now at the end of the call they did ask for my name, and i politely declined to give that information. She was like ookkkaaaay. I figure if they need the number or metadata from the call, the NSA could provide that for them.

 

[woozy]

"If you walked out of your house right now and saw a zombie and a dog having a conversation, would you instantly believe in zombies and talking dogs? "

Weird buffer memory. *That* wasn't what I intended cut and paste! Try again:

"So it is 100/200 per place it is brewed. So no matter how many freinds Fred has over and they pitch their own yeast it would go against the homeowners brew limit. "

Okay, that's better.

Geez, now we're all confused again! Or I am! So can I go to someone else's house (or an open field) and brew a second hundred gallons? So, I can brew hundreds and hundreds of gallons as long as i do it in different places? (Actually, I guess that is consistent.) And we repeat the same questions over and over. well... I guess we'll never really know.

Maybe our mistake is in assuming that any-one, including the feds, actually knows either.

"Now at the end of the call they did ask for my name, and i politely declined to give that information. She was like ookkkaaaay."

I'm kind of reminded of the common variety garden poppy, Papaver somniferum. Growing or owning any part of this poppy except its seeds, which can not be sold for the purpose of cultivation, is illegal. But the feds don't *want* you to know that it is illegal. (If you know that it is illegal, then you will know that you can make opium from them, and if you know that you might do it.) Thus, if you go blithely ignorantly buying seeds from equally ignornant shop owners and growing pretty poppies the feds are happy even though you and the shop owner are both utterly unknowingly breaking the law. But the moment you start asking about the law or reading up on it, *then* you become a person of suspect.

Perhaps beer is the same way. 6 guys get together and brew 5 gallons of beer every week at Fred's house without any of them thinking there could possibly be anything wrong this, the feds are fine. But when one of the guys says "gee, I just realized that we're brewing, like, 250 gallons of beer a year? Is there some kind of legal limit? Maybe we should ask the Feds?"... it's at *that* moment the Fed's concern and radar go off. "If this guy's concerned then maybe we should keep an eye on him..."

 

[ACbrewer]

So it is 100/200 per place it is brewed. So no matter how many freinds Fred has over and they pitch their own yeast it would go against the homeowners brew limit.

Well that is very insteresting. The person you spoke with basically is saying 'where it is brewed/produced is the home that the limit is applied against.' The only reason I bring this up with the yeast pitching is that in VA, the person who PITCHES the yeast is the homebrewer, and presumably against his limit. Part of the reason for this is for BOP shops, alowing the shop owner to provide space and not go over limit.

It also seems there is a presumption by the federal person's response that you aren't going to transport much of it, but rather it is for personal consumption. Which makes sense, about 95 to 99% of the food I prepare is for eating by my household, and not for consumption by others away from my house (ie I don't run a restraunt/food cart out of my kitchen)

And the tax rates on beer is I think ~$18/barrel, or about $54/100 gallons, meaning each of us is stiff the feds of up to $54/year just in beer tax (not including a brewer's fees/taxes it pays as doing business). I think in the end that is 75% of what the Gov't (all levels) care about, getting $$$$ (or in the 2 case per batch of beer I make $)

 

[ntbritton]

Agreed, i was a little surprised to hear it that way, but they also said it is "produced", meaning the place it is when it is done being produced and drinkable, to me that means i can brew it, ferment it, carb it, but it needs to be out before the carb is done processing, becouse that would be the finished product.

 

[pfgonzo]

My $0.02. It's drinkable once fermentation is complete. Otherwise what's to stop someone from keeping 500ga in kegs at home and claiming the brews aren't finished because they plan to oak them at some point? Or dry hop them?

I guarantee you that if ATF ever busts down your door, and you try to argue to the judge that the 500ga wasn't carbonated yet, and therefore not yet "produced," it's not going to fly.

 

[ntbritton]

That could be very true. I need to pickup another burn phone and i could call back to ask.

 

[finsfan]

haha that is weird that they ask you for your name last time, go to a payphone

 

[ntbritton]

I will need to make sure to wipe the coins down, where a hoddie, and gloves...then i could. First i will need to find an actual payphone