Trying Again - Rye Barleywine

[TheZymurgist]

Ok, I did some research, and this is what I've come up with for the Rye Barleywine. I'm borrowing the idea of a 1:1 ration of Rye to 2-Row, based on this recipe for Roggenbier, unless someone has experience with using that much rye, and says not to. I think this should end up with a nice ruby hue, and good earthy tones.

Batch size: 5.25 gallons
OG: 1.107
SRM: 16
Boil time: 120 minutes
Mash temp: 149

Fermentables:
10 lb Rye Malt
10 lb 2-Row
1 lb Rice Hulls
8 oz Carared
8 oz Crystal 80
4 oz Roasted Barley
1 lb Clear Candi Sugar

Hops:
1 oz Progress - First Wort Hop
1 oz Pilgrim - 60 min
1 oz Progress - 15 min
1 oz Pilgrim - 15 min
2 oz Progress - Dry Hop
2 oz Pilgrim - Dry Hop

Yeast: White Labs WLP099 Super High Gravity Yeast

What do you guys think? If you really think this is to much rye, let me know. The Roggenbier recipe looks pretty neat, but I don't have that much experience using rye, only drinking it.

I'd like this to be on the drier end, which is why I picked the WLP099 yeast, but if there's a better choice that will add complexity, while drying it out and emphasizing the rye, I'm open to it.

Thanks for the input!!

 

[forstmeister]

Do you have an adjustable mill? Rye is a very small kernel and is tough to get a good crush on. If you don't then be prepared for an extreme hit on efficiency. You could always try the new rye malt LME instead of using malted rye grain.

 

[GuldTuborg]

If you can't adjust the mill settings, running the rye through 2-3 times is nearly as good.

That said, I'm interested to see how this works out. Keep us posted if you do it. I don't know about the 099, as I haven't used it, but there are plenty of other yeasts that do fine with ~1.1 gravity. You don't have to use the 099. I'm not saying it's a bad choice, just that you have options.

 

[zachattack]

Table sugar will give you the same result as the clear candi sugar, and it will cost a whole lot less.

If you've never done a big beer before, prepare for significantly lower efficiency than you usually see. I consistently see 80-82% mash efficiencies, but for big beers it can drop into the 60s. So make sure you have some extra light DME on hand to boost the gravity after you take the preboil measurement. You can also consider sparging with extra water then doing a longer boil, that should help.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I do have an adjustable mill, so I'll make sure to crush the rye a little finer. I want to avoid using any extract if possible, just to make sure I get the most fermentable sugars I can. I don't want this to finish too sweet.

If you can't adjust the mill settings, running the rye through 2-3 times is nearly as good.

That said, I'm interested to see how this works out. Keep us posted if you do it. I don't know about the 099, as I haven't used it, but there are plenty of other yeasts that do fine with ~1.1 gravity. You don't have to use the 099. I'm not saying it's a bad choice, just that you have options.

Any suggestions on the yeast? 099 seems to have issues with diacetyl in my experience, even with temperature control.

Table sugar will give you the same result as the clear candi sugar, and it will cost a whole lot less.

If you've never done a big beer before, prepare for significantly lower efficiency than you usually see. I consistently see 80-82% mash efficiencies, but for big beers it can drop into the 60s. So make sure you have some extra light DME on hand to boost the gravity after you take the preboil measurement. You can also consider sparging with extra water then doing a longer boil, that should help.

Good point on the cost of the candi sugar. I'll change that out. I have done a couple of beers over 1.090, one was 1.115, and never saw any issues with efficiency. I seem to be able to hit my numbers pretty well, but keep that in mind and see if there's anything I need to do to adjust my process.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[TheZymurgist]

Come to think of it, I've been wanting a reason to try Denny's Favorite, Wyeast 1450. I think I will go with that on this one, it seems to accentuate the qualities I want.

 

[motorneuron]

My only advice is to keep the grain bed above 160F when sparging, or you will wind up with a sticky mess. I don't have any experience with that much rye, but you might also consider a protein rest to help with sparging and avoid haze in the final beer. You'll have a high terminal gravity, and body, no matter what you do, so I would guess there's no reason to worry about a protein rest thinning the beer excessively. But I haven't actually tried that, so I don't know.

As long as you're not going for candi sugar, you could consider replacing it with something that has a little character, like turbinado or jaggery, instead of just plain white sugar.

With 20+ lbs of grain for a 5.25-gallon batch, have you thought about doing another beer from the second runnings?

 

[TheZymurgist]

My only advice is to keep the grain bed above 160F when sparging, or you will wind up with a sticky mess. I don't have any experience with that much rye, but you might also consider a protein rest to help with sparging and avoid haze in the final beer. You'll have a high terminal gravity, and body, no matter what you do, so I would guess there's no reason to worry about a protein rest thinning the beer excessively. But I haven't actually tried that, so I don't know.

As long as you're not going for candi sugar, you could consider replacing it with something that has a little character, like turbinado or jaggery, instead of just plain white sugar.

With 20+ lbs of grain for a 5.25-gallon batch, have you thought about doing another beer from the second runnings?

Not sure I can effectively do a protein rest with my setup, at least not easily since it's not direct fired. I know people do it, but I don't have much experience with it. I'll do some research.

The sugar is really just there to help dry it out some, I don't think I want anything with character.

I've thought about doing a parti-gyle, but not sure how much I'd be able to extract after the first beer. I'll be doing a double (or triple) batch sparge, collecting 8 gallons of wort to boil for 120 minutes. I get about 1.5 gallons of boil-off per hour. There's no hurt in trying, though, except that it would make for one long brew day.

Thanks for the input, you've at least given me some things to think about.

 

[motorneuron]

Well, you could do a protein rest with less than your final volume of water for the mash. E.g. you could do a protein rest at 1 qt/lb at 122F, and add more hot water to hit your main saccharification rest temperature at 1.25 qt/lb or whatever your final mash thickness is. But you would have to do the math to make sure it works. You can also do a decoction if that won't work for some reason.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Well, you could do a protein rest with less than your final volume of water for the mash. E.g. you could do a protein rest at 1 qt/lb at 122F, and add more hot water to hit your main saccharification rest temperature at 1.25 qt/lb or whatever your final mash thickness is. But you would have to do the math to make sure it works. You can also do a decoction if that won't work for some reason.

Yeah, it's just getting the math right that worries me. Here's the recipe that sort of inspired this creation:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...eer-recipe-of-the-week-roggen-german-rye-beer

This calls for a protein rest as well, so may that's something I should seriously look in to.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Ok, I think I'm going to give the protein rest a shot. I'll try 15 minutes at 122*, then at least 60 minutes at 150*. Moto, I'm really glad you mentioned that, cause it wouldn't have even occurred to me. Thanks!!

 

[motorneuron]

Yeah, I mean I'm flying mostly blind here, since the highest rye percentage I've personally used is about 30%. That went surprisingly smoothly given that people claim rye is a total nightmare, but I was certain to keep my mash above 160F. I didn't use a protein rest. But then again, that was 3 lbs of rye with 8.5 lbs of total grist, whereas you're looking at like 22 lbs of grist, with basically half rye. So if it goes bad, it could go real bad!

You can use this to help: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

How big is your mash tun? The calculator says you can do 122F @ 1.00 qt/gal with 23 quarts of 133.4F water, and then add 12.5 quarts of boiling water to reach 150F @ 1.50 qt/gal. But that would also mean 8.875 gallons of water in total in your tun, which doesn't even include the volume of grain. Sounds like an empirical question whether that would fit even in a 10-gallon cooler!

So the decoction is significantly safer, since it allows you to avoid any increase in volume. You can always add the decocted portion slowly and hold back some of it (for sparging) if you'd otherwise overshoot your temperature.

Conclusion: high-gravity beers make my head hurt, whether it's from drinking them or from thinking about them.

 

[motorneuron]

Ok, I think I'm going to give the protein rest a shot. I'll try 15 minutes at 122*, then at least 60 minutes at 150*. Moto, I'm really glad you mentioned that, cause it wouldn't have even occurred to me. Thanks!!

Ha, don't thank me now, since I haven't even tried it--just thank me if it works!

 

[TheZymurgist]

Yeah, I mean I'm flying mostly blind here, since the highest rye percentage I've personally used is about 30%. That went surprisingly smoothly given that people claim rye is a total nightmare, but I was certain to keep my mash above 160F. I didn't use a protein rest. But then again, that was 3 lbs of rye with 8.5 lbs of total grist, whereas you're looking at like 22 lbs of grist, with basically half rye. So if it goes bad, it could go real bad!

You can use this to help: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

How big is your mash tun? The calculator says you can do 122F @ 1.00 qt/gal with 23 quarts of 133.4F water, and then add 12.5 quarts of boiling water to reach 150F @ 1.50 qt/gal. But that would also mean 8.875 gallons of water in total in your tun, which doesn't even include the volume of grain. Sounds like an empirical question whether that would fit even in a 10-gallon cooler!

So the decoction is significantly safer, since it allows you to avoid any increase in volume. You can always add the decocted portion slowly and hold back some of it (for sparging) if you'd otherwise overshoot your temperature.

Conclusion: high-gravity beers make my head hurt, whether it's from drinking them or from thinking about them.

Cripes, I may be in a little over my head here. My tun is only 10 gallons, so that won't work. Maybe I should start with a smaller rye percentage, and see how it works. If I decide I want more rye, I could always cut it to a 3 gallon batch, which would then allow me to experiment with the protein rest, and learn a few other things along the way.

 

[motorneuron]

No, no, you'll be fine as long as you're willing to do a decoction as a backup if your volume is getting too high. Palmer suggests this in How to Brew, I think. The great advantage of decoction is that it doesn't require any additional volume, and you can do it without direct heating--that's part of why they used to do it, in their giant wooden vats or whatever. This will be an adventure!

 

[danielofthedale]

This sounds very interesting and tasty! I am a fan of rye beers and barley wines so its a total win-win for me. When are you planning to brew this beast?

 

[TheZymurgist]

No, no, you'll be fine as long as you're willing to do a decoction as a backup if your volume is getting too high. Palmer suggests this in How to Brew, I think. The great advantage of decoction is that it doesn't require any additional volume, and you can do it without direct heating--that's part of why they used to do it, in their giant wooden vats or whatever. This will be an adventure!

Thanks for the encouragement. I did a little more reading and thinking on out last night, and I think you're right. Now is as good a time as any to learn a new process, and I do enjoy experimenting. So decoction it is. I'll hopefully be getting to this brew in the next month or so, I have a couple brews planned ahead of this one. I'll be sure to keep you guys in the loop!

 

[motorneuron]

Awesome--glad to hear it. And yeah, let us know how it goes (process) and turns out (taste). I would be interested in trying something like this myself!

I also realize I never said anything about the WLP099. I haven't used it, but I have used combinations of two different yeasts in high-gravity beers before. You could consider pitching something for initial fermentation to get the flavor profile you want, and then pitching a big starter of 099 after the first yeast tires out to get the dryness you want. I did this in an OG 1.120 beer with a Scottish strain followed by WLP001 (itself a pretty good high-gravity yeast) and it worked great.

 

[TheZymurgist]

In case anyone has sub'd to this thread, I just ordered the ingredients for this Roggenbier recipe. I'm going to use this to practice the decoction, and then I'll do the Rye Barleywine. Stay tuned for updates, I'll probably start a new thread in the 'recipes' section once I actually do the barleywine, but I'll add a link here for anyone following.

Cheers!

 

[danielofthedale]

Sweet! Can't wait to hear how it all turns out.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Well, I tried my hands at the Roggenbier a couple weeks ago. Here's the story.