Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[kaz4121]

This may sound dumb, but why not do five 1 gallon batches with varying hop ratios instead of one 5 gallon batch? That way you could reduce overall quantity of hops and directly compare each batch to Heady to move you in the right direction more efficiently?

This way you could quickly eliminate the wrong ratios and hone in more closely on the right ratios.

 

[paulster2626]

This may sound dumb, but why not do five 1 gallon batches with varying hop ratios instead of one 5 gallon batch? That way you could reduce overall quantity of hops and directly compare each batch to Heady to move you in the right direction more efficiently?

This way you could quickly eliminate the wrong ratios and hone in more closely on the right ratios.

Because drinking 25 gallons of beer is way more fun than drinking 5 of them!

Actually a good idea for the dry-hop part of it.

 

[theveganbrewer]

For me I tried the 5 one gallon route but ran into problems when it was time to consume. I don't bottle condition, so they had to go into a keg. Plus they mostly all tasted the same. It was difficult to overpower the hops that were already in each beer from the 5 min and whirlpool hops. This was the point in time when I started hacking off hops from the list because the two best gallons were the ones with the simplest dry hops, simcoe and Columbus and simcoe, Columbus, and Amarillo.

 

[kaz4121]

That makes sense. I wish I had Pearl and Simcoe on hand so I could contribute to the R&D side of things. I just landed four unexpected 4-packs of HT from my girlfriends mom. Third batch I've tried.

I do have one can from September that got lost in my fridge and the most recent are from this week. Do we need any more confirmation on the FG situation? SRM comparison? Interest in just seeing the two beers side by side?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Just smell them and try make lots of notes on what you smell. Maybe read hop profiles to see if you can pick out certain varieties.

 

[Petekiteworld]

Ferment at 68 confirmation

 

[theveganbrewer]

Where was that? I saw 68 on another sign they had at the cannery, but this looks different.

I just got my most recent attempt into the fermenter. I'm sitting here smelling my boil kettle and I am definitely getting something unique in there that reminds me of Heady. I have used 1 oz of Apollo so far and have changed some of the other ratios around a bit, but this definitely smells good right now.

 

[Petekiteworld]

It was on a sign at the brewery today.

 

[FATC1TY]

Man, I need some more Heady to get my clone off the ground!

 

[kingwood-kid]

I just got my most recent attempt into the fermenter. I'm sitting here smelling my boil kettle and I am definitely getting something unique in there that reminds me of Heady. I have used 1 oz of Apollo so far and have changed some of the other ratios around a bit, but this definitely smells good right now.

How was #3 in terms of accuracy and enjoyability? Every time I'm ready to clone your clone you go and change the recipe on me.

 

[theveganbrewer]

They're all excellent DIPAs. My blog is more of a journey on the search for the clone, until there is the word final in the title, be prepared for changes. But for a clone, 3.0 was just off on the hops a bit. I wanted to shift some of the Simcoe from taste to aroma and increase whatever it was that was creating a unique aroma. I think it was the Apollo, but could have been the caramalt. On 3.0 I didn't actually use Turbinado, as I learned about that too late and didn't have time to buy it, so 4.0 has the Turbinado in it. 3.0 had an 1.25 ounces of Apollo in it, I plan to do 1.5 ounces in 4.0, 1 in the boil and whirlpool, the other 0.5 ounce in the dry hop.

I've enjoyed what the cara#### has brought to the recipe, I think it's in there for sure and it's just a matter of finding the one john uses. I tried caravienna on some test batches and liked it but I assume he's using Thomas Fawcett Caramalt, TF Torrified Wheat, and TF Pearl. I contacted TF for all the SRM numbers on those products this year and they were Caramalt: 15, Torrified Wheat: 1.7, and Pearl: 2. which would make this about a 6.5 SRM beer at these ratios.

 

[khugs21]

Went to the brewery last week to pick up a few cases while visiting a buddy. One of the temp controls had a fermenter at 70 going strong. Couldn't see the temps on any other fermenters tho.

 

[g-star]

Just kegged my attempt yesterday. The sample seemed very close to what I remember Heady looking and tasting like, though it is always difficult to judge by memory. Aroma was a balance between Simcoe/Centennial fruitiness and a dank piney-ness from the Columbus, though I would say it leaned more towards the latter (which seemed to give the signature HT flavor). Bitterness and body seemed correct - did not seem "thin" at all, and the bitterness was more of a late-pallete type, if that makes any sense. I bittered with Apollo, and used no hop extract.

I would say a "flaw" that I noted was a definite onion/garlic note from the 2oz of Columbus used in the dry-hop (I detected it initially in my bag of pellets). Got me thinking about hop stability (Columbus is notoriously poor), and how that makes cloning this beer even more difficult, even if we ever nail down a recipe.

Will reserve final judgment until the beer is fully carbed and cold-condition for 10-14 days. Just wanted to report my initial results.

 

[Hoplander]

G-star, care to share your recipe/technique? Ill be attempting a recipe soon. Just have to get a rye out of the way for a competition.

 

[g-star]

G-star, care to share your recipe/technique? Ill be attempting a recipe soon. Just have to get a rye out of the way for a competition.

91% Pearl (Muntons)
4% Caramalt
5% dextrose

Single infusion mash at 149F for 60min
OG = 1.077 (a bit better efficiency than planned)
FG = 1.014
Total IBU = 124
60min boil

1.5oz Apollo at 60 min (74 IBU)

1oz each Simcoe/Centennial/Columbus at flameout - hot whirlpool (212-185F) for 20min (calculated as a 15min addition (50 IBU))

1oz each Simcoe/Columbus/Amarillo once chilling began and wort dropped to 170F (0 IBU). Chilled from 170F to 66F in 15min.

90sec of pure O2, pitched Conan (stepped up 3 times from 2 cans of HT) at 63F. Let rise to 66F and held there for 6 days, after which FG was reached.

After two weeks at 66F, dry-hopped with 1oz each of Columbus/Simcoe/Galaxy. Five days after 1st dry hop addition, added 1oz each of Columbus/Simcoe/Centennial and dry hopped for another 4 days. All dry hops were pellets added loose, the carboy was gently swirled once a day.

Crashed overnight at 34F and kegged.

 

[barrooze]

91% Pearl (Muntons)
4% Caramalt
5% dextrose

Single infusion mash at 149F for 60min
OG = 1.077 (a bit better efficiency than planned)
FG = 1.014
Total IBU = 124
60min boil

What size batch was this for?

 

[droder1]

91% Pearl (Muntons)
4% Caramalt
5% dextrose

Single infusion mash at 149F for 60min
OG = 1.077 (a bit better efficiency than planned)
FG = 1.014
Total IBU = 124
60min boil

1.5oz Apollo at 60 min (74 IBU)

1oz each Simcoe/Centennial/Columbus at flameout - hot whirlpool (212-185F) for 20min (calculated as a 15min addition (50 IBU))

1oz each Simcoe/Columbus/Amarillo once chilling began and wort dropped to 170F (0 IBU). Chilled from 170F to 66F in 15min.

90sec of pure O2, pitched Conan (stepped up 3 times from 2 cans of HT) at 63F. Let rise to 66F and held there for 6 days, after which FG was reached.

After two weeks at 66F, dry-hopped with 1oz each of Columbus/Simcoe/Galaxy. Five days after 1st dry hop addition, added 1oz each of Columbus/Simcoe/Centennial and dry hopped for another 4 days. All dry hops were pellets added loose, the carboy was gently swirled once a day.

Crashed overnight at 34F and kegged.

Galaxy? Were you going for a clone or similar? It's all US hops. Will be interesting to hear how the fully carbed mouthfeel is with no wheat, please let us know

 

[g-star]

Galaxy? Were you going for a clone or similar? It's all US hops. Will be interesting to hear how the fully carbed mouthfeel is with no wheat, please let us know

It was for a 5.5 gallon batch. Was not trying to mimic HT exactly, but more go for that style of DIPA/hop flavor. Seems pretty close to what I remember the real thing being, even with the relatively small amount of Galaxy. I would definitely characterize it as more dank/piney than tropical/fruity.

I will report back on the mouthfeel when it is fully carbed.

 

[eandersen]

Out of curiosity did anyone get the ECY Conan?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Out of curiosity did anyone get the ECY Conan?

I think he is still testing it.

 

[Hoplander]

Out of curiosity did anyone get the ECY Conan?

That was for the homebrew club that he is affiliated with but I'm hoping he puts it in his offering. Just not sure what the legality of it is.

 

[eandersen]

Fairly sure it would be legal to distribute. If Kimmich had a trademark on Conan they'd have to call it something else. But it seems that saying the strain itself is protected would be like saying a species of cow or pig is protected and cannot be bred by anyone besides one farm.

 

[drive45]

Thinking about brewing this since I found out I may have a connection to get some Heady for yeast harvesting. Some dumb questions:
1) It has been stated multiple times that there is no Crystal in this beer. However, the latest recipes have Caramalt. Isn't Caramalt basically a Crystal malt?
2) Where have you been able to get Thomas Fawcett Caramalt? Nobody seems to carry it. In fact, finding any TF stuff can be hard. Midwest is the only place I saw that has TF Pearl. If there is no good place for TF Caramalt, what would a decent substitute be?
3) Vegan, I was planning on brewing something similar to your 4.0 version on your website. Any chance you can provide additional details on your AAU for the hops and the dry hopping schedule? You indicate on the website you will update on June 1, but I was hoping you could give me a sneak peek.

Thanks everyone for all the hard work and knowledge exchange.

 

[dbennett78]

Have you guys that are using Conan been noticing a Belgian taste right out of the primary that disappears after a week or so in the keg? The last 2 batches Ive made have this, but it seems to disappear once its been in the keg for a week or so. Maybe residual yeast dropping out?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Thinking about brewing this since I found out I may have a connection to get some Heady for yeast harvesting. Some dumb questions:
1) It has been stated multiple times that there is no Crystal in this beer. However, the latest recipes have Caramalt. Isn't Caramalt basically a Crystal malt?
2) Where have you been able to get Thomas Fawcett Caramalt? Nobody seems to carry it. In fact, finding any TF stuff can be hard. Midwest is the only place I saw that has TF Pearl. If there is no good place for TF Caramalt, what would a decent substitute be?
3) Vegan, I was planning on brewing something similar to your 4.0 version on your website. Any chance you can provide additional details on your AAU for the hops and the dry hopping schedule? You indicate on the website you will update on June 1, but I was hoping you could give me a sneak peek.

Thanks everyone for all the hard work and knowledge exchange.

1) Many people have said there is no crystal in the beer, but I'm not sure it was anything more than assumptions made off of John's comments when he said he doesn't like residual sweetness in his IPAs.

2) Midwest has Crisp Caramalt, which matched the SRM of TF Caramalt. 17.5 SRM. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/cara-malt.html

3) I updated the post with the alpha acid percentages. Dry hopping in two stages with half Simcoe/Columbus combo, and half Centennial/Apollo/Amarillo combo. Still debating Cascade.

 

[FATC1TY]

I've often wondered if he uses some crazy wild american hop that isn't so widely used.... like Comet.

I have some Comet here, and it's one of the dankest hops I've ever used... Used it once, and unknowingly ended up with a DIPA I called Jamaican OJ DIPA. It's like weed poured over orange juice. It's sticky and earthy, and man... it's so dank it's just insane...

That would fly so far under the radar that it would be so in left field for guessing it being used.

 

[jammin]

Took a hydro sample of Heady and got 1.012 on my brewers edge precision hydrometer. Not sure if another measurement helps anyone but I figured Id throw it out there.

 

[Tupperwolf]

That was for the homebrew club that he is affiliated with but I'm hoping he puts it in his offering. Just not sure what the legality of it is.

You can't patent or copyright a microorganism. Anyone could culture up some Conan yeast from dregs and sell it or give it away. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[drive45]

Vegan, you are awesome. Thank you.

 

[Petekiteworld]

So ive been drinking fresh HT from the brewery two to three days per week for the past several months.
Observations:
• Pearl is crucial, dominates the malt flavor and aroma of this beer. Huge involvement.
• Conan is crucial. Ive brewrd a couple beers with it and it adds the heady mouthfeel and some aromas
• Dank hops are crucial, still unclear but mellow bittering

Not revelations by any means.

 

[sweetcell]

You can't patent or copyright a microorganism. Anyone could culture up some Conan yeast from dregs and sell it or give it away. Correct me if I'm wrong.

that's my understanding as well.

the name "Conan", however, is trademarked. you can sell the yeast but you can't call it "Conan". hence the description that does everything short of using the name.

 

[kaz4121]

You can't patent or copyright a microorganism. Anyone could culture up some Conan yeast from dregs and sell it or give it away. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not sure about patenting microorganisms, but even if you could it wouldn't do the patent holder much good, particularly since yeast mutate so rapidly that a few generations down the line you might have a genetically different microorganism that is no longer patented.

 

[t_met]

You can't patent or copyright a microorganism. Anyone could culture up some Conan yeast from dregs and sell it or give it away. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not to sure about that. For instance, apples & seeds have been patented (Honeycrisp apple, Monisanto seeds)

But those are plants that have been cultivated by companies that want to be rewarded for their R&D to come up with these varieties.


Funny. I just looked at Monisanto's web page to confirm that they patent stuff. I found this:
1873 The patenting of living organisms dates back to at least 1873 when Monsieur Louis Pasteur was awarded US Patent #141,072 with a claim to "yeast, free of organic germs of disease, as a living organism." Pasteur was using the yeast to make beer.

 

[t_met]

Fairly sure it would be legal to distribute. If Kimmich had a trademark on Conan they'd have to call it something else. But it seems that saying the strain itself is protected would be like saying a species of cow or pig is protected and cannot be bred by anyone besides one farm.

I believe that the Vermont Pub & Brewery, where Kimmich was connected with, had the Conan as a house strain. So it would be VT P&B, not Kimmich, that would probably own the rights. This would not be cost effective since they would have to prove that they developed this yeast, higher lawyers, and hire people to track you down, higher more lawyers then to sue you....

As mentioned in my last post, you can patent things like yeast. They have patents on various animals already. It looks like around the late 1980s they started patenting lab animals.

 

[NuclearRich]

I am going to be jumping in on my own try soon. Finally got ahold of some HT, down here in southern CT. I will culture it as soon as I drink it. I am thinking of doing two cans, (I only have 4), and being sure the culture remains clean, having a backup. How much of a weak starter is good for 2 cans worth of yeast (Fresh, about a week old at this point)?
I think the first thing I will do is an amber ale (variation of my house ale, with Conan instead of WY1056), and use the cake for the HT clone, and store a little for more attempts.
Also, I recently did a DIPA loosely based on the idea of HT, but not aiming to clone it. It will give me a wildly different flavor, I am assuming, but it will be good to have something to base comparisons off of, as more of big contrasting batch. The grain bill is pretty much what I think I will be using for the HT I will do soon. I am starting the dry hop this weekend, and will post a link to the recipe whenever I get around to it. More important is the HT clone I will be doing in the next week or so. Wish me luck!

 

[HawksBrewer]

How much of a weak starter is good for 2 cans worth of yeast (Fresh, about a week old at this point)?

I only harvested from one can, but I used a 16oz starter at 1.020 (you'll have to do the math on how many grams that is) successfully. I then built it up to one liter at 1.040 and so on. Make sure you pour into a glass, cover the can w/ foil and then flame the lip of the can before transfer. Can't take any chances w/ sanitation!

 

[GRBC]

Thanks to BullGator, I am drinking a can of HT right now:







Tastes great!

To my nose, it is mostly Simcoe, Columbus, and Centennial in that order - mostly Simcoe. If Amarillo is there in, it's in the boil, not in the FV. For some reason, I am real sensitive to the tangerine/orange note from Amarillo - a little goes a long way for me. I detect a similar earthy/oniony (in a good way!) hop aroma that I get from DFH60 - wonder if that is the Simcoe? To me, it really is all hop flavor and aroma and no discernible malt presence. Maybe there is a tiny bit of residual sweetness, but it is really all about the hop flavor and aroma.

If I had to guess from my one pint tasting, I would say that it has Columbus for bittering, simcoe, centennial and amarillo in the BK (whirlpool additions), and simcoe, Columbus, and something (centennial) in large quantities as dry hops in the FV.

 

[GRBC]

Thanks to BullGator, I am drinking a can of HT right now:

Tastes great!

To my nose, it is mostly Simcoe, Columbus, and Centennial in that order - mostly Simcoe. If Amarillo is there in, it's in the boil, not in the FV. For some reason, I am real sensitive to the tangerine/orange note from Amarillo - a little goes a long way for me. I detect a similar earthy/oniony (in a good way!) hop aroma that I get from DFH60 - wonder if that is the Simcoe? To me, it really is all hop flavor and aroma and no discernible malt presence. Maybe there is a tiny bit of residual sweetness, but it is really all about the hop flavor and aroma.

If I had to guess from my one pint tasting, I would say that it has Columbus for bittering, centennial and amarillo in the BK (whirlpool additions), and simcoe, Columbus, and something (centennial) in large quantities as dry hops in the FV.

[by the way, I'm drinking from a glass because I am harvesting the Conan yeast!]

 

[bottlebomber]

I finally scored a can of HT in a swap yesterday. Im going to let it sit in the fridge for a week to let the yeast settle, sanitize the outside of the can, and not get too greedy when I pour off the pint. Hopefully I'll be joining the ranks of the Conan brewers soon.

 

[Coff]

About to be bragadocious, I cultured Conan in December which is now on Gen 8. Just scored ECY29 from my LHBS so I can start over. #spoiledbrewer