Question for weizen brewers

[Demus]

I'm planning a nice hef for summer sipping and really want that clove/banana/bubblegum character to shine. I read something about a temperature rest (all grain) at I think 125 for :20 to enhance the esters that result in these flavors. Has anyone tried this? What's a good basic hefe weizen recipe?

 

[Demus]

Also, any advice on how to keep it cloudy in the keg? My last batch tasted great, but looked more like kristal weizen after a month in the keg...

 

[Jon_TWR]

You're thinking of an acid rest...I usually shoot for 113°. I'm noy sure how much of an impact it has, but it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

If you want the beer to stay cloudy, either give the keg a gentle rocking to resuspend the yeast each day, or if you just want it to look cloudy and don't care if the cloudiness is suspended yeast or not, jusy toss a tablespoon of flour into the last few minutes of the boil.

 

[novahokie09]

Acid rest typically are performed at lower temps. Phytase enzyme works to break down phytin into calcium and magnesium phosphates along with phytic acid. This step was used to acidfy the mash for pale malts which don't contain as much phosphates compared to darker malts. You can mash around 110F to produce ferulic acid, which the yeast will use to produce a clove-like aroma (4-vinyl guaiacol). This is phenol though, not an ester.

125F would have primarily protease and peptidase enzyme activity. Both will be beneficial for a hefe due to the large protein content in wheat. Protease will breakdown larger molecular weight proteins to smaller protein molecules. This will improve head retention and clarity of your beer.

Peptidase acticity will hydrolyze the proteins into amino acids, which will provide nutrients to yeast. I believe this is probably what you heard relating to improving ester production in hefes.

There's two main components going on in a hefe though. There's clove aroma which is a phenolic characteristic and banana aroma which is an ester aromatic compound. You can also have vanilla and bubblegum characteristics.

In terms of a recipe, find one by Jamil Zainasheff from Brewing Classic Styles. If you don't have the book, you can find his recipe from a Google search.

 

[highgravitybacon]

I'm planning a nice hef for summer sipping and really want that clove/banana/bubblegum character to shine. I read something about a temperature rest (all grain) at I think 125 for :20 to enhance the esters that result in these flavors. Has anyone tried this? What's a good basic hefe weizen recipe?

Bubblegum is not a desired trait in hefewizens that I like. There's a lot of debate on whether a ferulic acid rest in the 111-113F range for 10-15 really does a lot. It certainly won't hurt if you can step it either via direct heat or infusions.

Playing a bigger role will be the yeast you use.

A hefeweizen is a simple beer on paper. In my experience, it's an easy style to make ho hum and a hard style to really nail. At its simplest, you can try 50/50 pilsen malt / wheat malt. OG of 1.044-1.052, IBUs something around 10-14IBU with a single 60 minute addition. Maybe tettnang, hallertau, liberty, mt hood, magnum. I like palisade for a subtle spice and fruit thing as a 45-60 minute. Mash maybe 149F for 60 minutes, do a 90 min boil.

Yeast options are many. I like WLP380 Hefeweizen IV fermented at 62-64F. Takes about 6-7 days for me. When almost done, warm to 68F to finish. I crash for 3 days at 33F. Bottle and carbonate to 3-3.5 volumes. I've heard good things about WLP351. Jamil Zainasheff suggests WLP300 / Wyeast 3068 work well with a good balance of flavors at 62F.

I never had a hefeweizen that tasted right ferment over 66F. I tried a whole slew of temps, including really warm like 74F. Awful. Nothing but banana and bubblegum. No clove, no tartness, not what I wanted.

 

[Demus]

125F would have primarily protease and peptidase enzyme activity. Both will be beneficial for a hefe due to the large protein content in wheat. Protease will breakdown larger molecular weight proteins to smaller protein molecules. This will improve head retention and clarity of your beer.

Peptidase acticity will hydrolyze the proteins into amino acids, which will provide nutrients to yeast. I believe this is probably what you heard relating to improving ester production in hefes.
.

So will :20 minutes do the trick? I do simple infusion mashing in a ten gallon igloo so I'll start thick, say 1qt per pound so it won't be too thin when I add the boiling water to bring it up to 150...

 

[westicle]

I just brewed this yesterday

German Hefeweizen
OG: 1.047
Type: All Grain FG: 1.012
Rating: 4.0 ABV: 4.52 %
Calories: 152.66 IBU's: 19.82
Efficiency: 70.00 % Boil Size: 29.34 L
Color: 3.8 SRM Batch Size: 23.00 L
Preboil OG: 1.041 Boil Time: 60 minutes

Grains & Adjuncts
Amount Percentage Name Time Gravity
5.00 lbs 41.67 % Pilsner (2 Row) Ger 60 mins 1.037
6.00 lbs 50.00 % Wheat Malt, Ger 60 mins 1.039
1.00 lbs 8.33 % Pale Malt (2 Row) US 60 mins 1.036

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
0.25 ozs 5.77 Hallertauer Tradition 90 mins 7.00
0.75 ozs 16.17 Hallertauer Tradition 60 mins 7.00

Yeasts
Amount Name Laboratory / ID
1 vials Hefeweizen Ale White Labs 0300

 

[Kuhndog]

A ferulic rest at 110 for 10 mins will bring more clove out if you are using WLP300 or Wyeast's 3068...otherwise use WLP380 (which is blended). So if you want to skip the rest and ferment at 70ish...then pick the WLP380...otherwise if you want more clove, we'll need to ferment on the low end of the yeast tolerance 68ish...also you could use a starter....the flip side (banana) you need to ferment warmer 70+ and underpitch the yeast.

 

[Demus]

What effect will these rests have if American ale (us05) is used? I'm thinking of doing ten gallons and using two fermenters, one Bavarian, one American. I'll probably dry hop the American to get some refreshing citrus aroma...

 

[Kuhndog]

What effect will these rests have if American ale (us05) is used? I'm thinking of doing ten gallons and using two fermenters, one Bavarian, one American. I'll probably dry hop the American to get some refreshing citrus aroma...

That would be fine for an American Wheat...but you really won't get any citrus in it unless you use something like Citra hops or add something like orange peel...etc.

As for the rests on an American Wheat....pretty much nothing - it has to do with the Hefe yeast since it has the capability to produce a range from clove to banana. US05 doesn't do that...it's a pretty clean run of the mill American strain.

 

[highgravitybacon]

A ferulic rest at 110 for 10 mins will bring more clove out if you are using WLP300 or Wyeast's 3068...otherwise use WLP380 (which is blended). So if you want to skip the rest and ferment at 70ish...then pick the WLP380...otherwise if you want more clove, we'll need to ferment on the low end of the yeast tolerance 68ish...also you could use a starter....the flip side (banana) you need to ferment warmer 70+ and underpitch the yeast.

Neither underpitching or an inappropriately warm fermentation temp (>70+) is required for a banana character. The yeast produce plenty of banana on their own. The idea that "warm = banana, cold = clove" simply isn't the case. Don't take my word for it. Listen to the Jamil Show on German Hefewizen, Dunkleweizen, Roggenbier, or Weizenbock if you don't believe it.

 

[Demus]

Listen to the Jamil Show on German Hefewizen, Dunkleweizen, Roggenbier, or Weizenbock if you don't believe it.

Got a link?

 

[novahokie09]

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Bavarian-Weizen-The-Jamil-Show-06-05-06

 

[julioardz]

From my experience, doing ferulic rests produce only subtle changes in flavor. So subtle that I'm not even sure it's due to the ferulic rest itself, so I skip it on my wheat beers now. The most significant impacts on the flavor of a German wheat beer for me have been the yeast pitch rate, pitch temperature, and fermentation temperature.

I get banana flavors no matter what I've tried. The challenge for me has been to tone the esters down enough so that the clove-like phenols come through as well. My favorite hefes are made using WLP380, slightly over pitched, pitched at 60F and allowed to ferment no warmer than 62F for most of the fermentation. Close to the end of fermentation I will let it free rise a few degrees to finish. I get equally good results doing the same with WLP300 and Wyeast3068. I just prefer the flavor of WLP380.

On the Jamil Show, they talk about how you really do have to ferment these cold to get a good flavor from a German wheat beer yeast. 60-62F is what works for me. Any higher than that and I get a grossly unbalanced beer with tons of esters. Too much banana, no clove. I also make a slightly larger starter than what Mr.Malty tells me I should use, usually about 1/2 liter more.

In German wheat beers, I aim for an OG of 1.048-1.050 and an IBU of 12-14. Too much hops and malt, and the yeast character gets masked, in my opinion.

 

[Krovitz]

Related question: What are your thoughts on a decoction mash for this beer? Will it make a big difference in the final product or will a higher mash temp be just as good?

 

[julioardz]

I like that richer, bready taste I get from decoctions. I've done it in a few Hefes with good results. I don't notice a huge difference, but I can tell there is more character to the beer as a whole, in a good way.

 

[highgravitybacon]

Related question: What are your thoughts on a decoction mash for this beer? Will it make a big difference in the final product or will a higher mash temp be just as good?

A decoction improves efficiency a few points for me. I see a lower efficiency with wheat, and the decoction restores it to my usual 73-75 pct.

 

[julioardz]

A decoction improves efficiency a few points for me. I see a lower efficiency with wheat, and the decoction restores it to my usual 73-75 pct.

Sorry, this is going off on a tangent, but just out of curiosity, do you mean efficiency as measured by your OG? I find my decoctions give me my expected OG, but I get a higher FG than expected. Every brew system and brewer is different, so I'm just wondering how others do with decoctions.

I may or may not do them on pilsners and hefes. I definitely do them on bocks and oktoberfests. I skip them entirely for all others.

 

[highgravitybacon]

Sorry, this is going off on a tangent, but just out of curiosity, do you mean efficiency as measured by your OG? I find my decoctions give me my expected OG, but I get a higher FG than expected. Every brew system and brewer is different, so I'm just wondering how others do with decoctions.

I may or may not do them on pilsners and hefes. I definitely do them on bocks and oktoberfests. I skip them entirely for all others.

Yes. I shoot for a brewhouse efficiency of 74%. With all other things being equal, I see a OG that equates to a 76-79% efficiency with a decoction. The FG remains the same. I use WLP380 which almost always delivers an ADF of 72-74% for me.

If you hold at 60C for longer you can probably increase the fermentability of the wort. I would like this yeast to attenuate a bit further, so I'm going to be doing that next time I brew. I'd like to see about a 75-76% ADF to have a FG somewhere in the 1.008-1.010 range for a beer starting at 1.048.

 

[DPBISME]

I read Brewing with Wheat by Stan Hieronymus and it said to create the precusors to the clove flavor that you should shoot for 112... and when you brew shoot for the low end of the yeasts of the temp range.

It is my understanding that to get the banana/bubble gum flavor you should brew at the high end of the temp range of the yeast.

I son't want my hefe to be toBubble Gummy so my next batch will sit tat 20 minutes at 112 before going forward...

It will be a combination Infusion and Decotion Mash...

DPB

 

[Kuhndog]

Neither underpitching or an inappropriately warm fermentation temp (>70+) is required for a banana character. The yeast produce plenty of banana on their own. The idea that "warm = banana, cold = clove" simply isn't the case. Don't take my word for it. Listen to the Jamil Show on German Hefewizen, Dunkleweizen, Roggenbier, or Weizenbock if you don't believe it.

I didn't say "required"...ALL Bavarian Hefe yeast have some banana but if you want more of one over the other using WLP300...that is the case. If you want more banana, underpitch and ferment warmer. IF you want more clove, overpitch and ferment cooler. Besides my info came directly from a GABF and WBC winner in the 15A category.

As to the temps - if your fermenter is at 60 (not the ambient temp)...that's too low. The brewery above ferments at 69-70...that is the temp of the pitched wort.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Underpitching would produce less esters, not more. The more reproduction, the more acetyl CoA is directed towards sterol production. The less reproduction, the more acetyl CoA goes towards creating esters. So if someone wants to maximize ester production in a Weizen, they would pitch lots of yeast and underaerate the wort.

Fermenting WLP 300 warm will create bubblegum-like flavors.

 

[julioardz]

ALL Bavarian Hefe yeast have some banana but if you want more of one over the other using WLP300...that is the case. If you want more banana, underpitch and ferment warmer. IF you want more clove, overpitch and ferment cooler.

I've played around with hefeweizen yeasts on many batches and find this to be true. Plus, this guy from Wyeast mentions it in the video below. He talks about pitch rate at the 15:35 mark. After the 16:00 mark he talks about the combination of pitch rate and temperature. What he says holds true in my batches. Underpitch=more esters, overpitch=less esters. The temperature also contributes and the warmer you go, the more you taste them.

As to the temps - if your fermenter is at 60 (not the ambient temp)...that's too low. The brewery above ferments at 69-70...that is the temp of the pitched wort.

But, I have to disagree here. Pitching and keeping the wort/beer at 60F (not ambient temperature) is not too low. I have a hefeweizen going now with WLP380. I pitched at 58-60F and it's been fermenting no warmer than 62F. Yes, my thermometer is properly calibrated too. You should here the noise coming out of my fermenting fridge. It sounds like I have some hungry beast in there from all gurgling of the blow off tube and my fermenting lid is buckled out as it usually does with hefeweizens yeasts. It's on day 3 of fermentation and I only have another 8 points to go before I likely reach final gravity. That will probably be in a day or two. I've had the same results with 3068 and WLP300. So I can see that hefeweizen yeasts have no problem fermenting cold. Someone on the Jamil show that was linked earlier in this thread also talks about how these beers are better fermented cold. I think they mentioned 62F.

I've tried 65F+ and up to 70F. It just doesn't produce a tasty beer for me. I know everyone's taste is different. Over pitching and fermenting cold produces the balance of clove and banana that I like in a hefeweizen. Anything above 65 and I get nothing but banana and bubble gum. Who knows what a beer judge or the style police may think about it. I just know that over pitching and fermenting cold gets me the results I like. To each his own.

 

[julioardz]

Underpitching would produce less esters, not more. The more reproduction, the more acetyl CoA is directed towards sterol production. The less reproduction, the more acetyl CoA goes towards creating esters. So if someone wants to maximize ester production in a Weizen, they would pitch lots of yeast and underaerate the wort.

Fermenting WLP 300 warm will create bubblegum-like flavors.

Sorry, but this directly from Wyeast's website:

A low pitch rate can lead to:
Excess levels of diacetyl
Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
Increase in ester formation
Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
High terminal gravities
Stuck fermentations
Increased risk of infection

High pitch rates can lead to:
Very low ester production
Very fast fermentations
Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

But you are correct on the bubble gum flavor.

 

[novahokie09]

As to the temps - if your fermenter is at 60 (not the ambient temp)...that's too low. The brewery above ferments at 69-70...that is the temp of the pitched wort.

Breweries can ferment at higher temperature and not risk ester and phenol production due to their fermentor geometry and hydrostatic pressure. Higher hydrostatic pressure reduce ester production, which allow breweries with larger 30/50 bbl fermentors to ferment at higher temperatures with lower rates of ester production.

The take away is that every brewer's setup is different. If you want to minimize ester production, use WLP 380 and try 67/68F. If you get too much banana, lower it next time. If you don't get enough, raise your temperature. Repeat these steps while keeping pitching rates as close as possible to determine the proper temperature for your system.

 

[Kuhndog]

Related question: What are your thoughts on a decoction mash for this beer? Will it make a big difference in the final product or will a higher mash temp be just as good?

In the US decoction's are not really used at breweries due to the cost of doing it. The easier way to get the same result is to use some Munich or Vienna Malt. Even some German breweries will tell you that they do that vs decoction. As a homebrewer, you could decoct but then you're spending more time, more gas/electric...etc.

Same thing applied to hops...people found out instead of using x amt of hops at 5-6% AA, they could use half that or thereabouts using a 10-12% AA hop. It was a way of saving money...but accomplishing the same end result.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Sorry, but this directly from Wyeast's website:

My information comes directly from White Labs as well as Laere et al. (2008) as cited in White & Zainasheff's Yeast book. That said, it's possible that isoamyl acetate is formed via a different pathway that does not involve an enzyme involved in yeast growth.

 

[julioardz]

My information comes directly from White Labs as well as Laere et al. (2008) as cited in White & Zainasheff's Yeast book. That said, it's possible that isoamyl acetate is formed via a different pathway that does not involve an enzyme involved in yeast growth.

Maybe we're both right, or maybe we are both wrong. The literature and yeast producers seem to contradict themselves. I've also read about the U-shaped curve in the relationship between pitch rate and ester production, where grossly over- or under-pitching leads to excessive ester productions, with each strain having it's own happy pitch rate somewhere in between. I really just go based on what I have experienced with my beer and if the literature supports it, great. If not, oh well. I still do what works for me.

All other things kept constant, underpitching a hefe yeasts, English yeasts, Belgian yeasts, and lager yeasts have produced excessive esters for my taste, and that's in beer that was fermented at appropriate temperatures for the strains being used. Pitching the recommended amount or slightly over, based on the basic tools available to us via Beersmith and Mr.Malty, I get a cleaner, less estery flavor profiles.

For my hefes, I would definitely make a starter and lean more towards a larger starter and ferment cold to get the hefeweizen I like with a balance of clove and banana. The ferulic rest seems to have a minimal effect for me. Controlling these other two factors have contributed far more in dialing in the flavor I want in my hefes.

 

[Krovitz]

In the US decoction's are not really used at breweries due to the cost of doing it. The easier way to get the same result is to use some Munich or Vienna Malt. Even some German breweries will tell you that they do that vs decoction. As a homebrewer, you could decoct but then you're spending more time, more gas/electric...etc.

Same thing applied to hops...people found out instead of using x amt of hops at 5-6% AA, they could use half that or thereabouts using a 10-12% AA hop. It was a way of saving money...but accomplishing the same end result.

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely try that out. Probably start around 5% and go from there.

 

[Demus]

How bout water profile?