Jailhose Lawyers: Sanitation and ... !carbonation drops!

[woozy]

So what's the legal loop-hole, folks? Carbonation drops, sanitation? What's the skinny?

 

[JohnSand]

Apparently the chemistry (ph?) of sugar is such that nothing grows on it. Did you ever see moldy sugar? Or spoiled sugar?
It's all good. You don't have to sanitize carb drops, or other priming sugar.

 

[BrewerBear]

Do what? How much have you had to drink?

 

[woozy]

Do what? How much have you had to drink?

Do what what? How much have *you* had to drink?

 

[AlCophile]

Not so; sugar does not decay because it is not wet, and if wetted slightly, it absorbs water until it can no longer remain solid, whence it turns to a syrup.

 

[BrewerBear]

Do what what? How much have *you* had to drink?

Not much,what about you?

 

[woozy]

Not much,what about you?

Why did you ask "do what?"?

 

[GenIke]

Wasnt "Jailhose Lawyers" on Cinemax saturday night? Like the after 11pm kinda stuff?

 

[woozy]

Wasnt "Jailhose Lawyers" on Cinemax saturday night? Like the after 11pm kinda stuff?

Maybe. "Jailhouse Lawyers" is a term I picked up from my student teaching days. After we had been observing classrooms for a while we were asked what we had observed that wasn't what we expected. One said the high-school students were real jail-house lawyers. Another said she was surprised just how much distracting stimuli there was in a class-room. I was a little more blunt: "Geez, these kids are *really* DUMB!"

 

[kitchenbeer]

Why did you ask "do what?"?

maybe the incoherent post.

 

[woozy]

maybe the incoherent post.

Shouldn't the response to incoherence be "say what" or "wtf" or ...

"Do what?" implies I asked how to do something.

 

[GenIke]

Wtf?

 

[woozy]

Wtf?

Fish! And spare-rib grill marks!
====

Okay, sanitation is darn near a religion with us home brewers. And like all religions we have our epistemology. So we're constantly asking "how do we sanitize this? But what about this?" Sometimes it seems we aren't so concerned with practical concerns of keeping our beer safe, but trying to either trip up or expand the holy tenets of sanitation. Thus you get people asking how to sanitize the inside of rubber gloves or just how much toxic sludge it's okay to toss in during a boil (because "the boil" is holy magic point when the wort in self-sanitizing so people take a perverse delight in realizing they can sneeze, piss, and dump one's dirty dishes into the wort when it's boiling *!!!!and it is technically self-sanitizing!!!!* [*gee* why doesn't anyone want any of my beer??? I said I *could* sneeze, piss, and dump dirty dishes; I didn't say I *did*.]).

Hence, jail-house lawyering: "So, I want to put carbonation tabs in. But everything has to be sanitized. You can't starsan carb tabs. So what do you do?!?!? Huh, did I find a loophole?! Huh, did I?!"

Apparently not, as sugar can't go bad. *But* it can still have microbes on them. My tabs have been exposed to air and have touched the side of a glass jar in which I keep them. They've also touched my fingers and possibly even my counter surface.

 

[RM-MN]

When I used to line up for an immunization shot the nurse would "sanitize" my arm where the needle with an alcohol swab. Your beer contains alcohol now plus it should be acidic and have CO2 over the top of it. Very few organisms can survive in that environment. Just drop your carbonation tabs in.

 

[DrunkleJon]

Sugar has been used as a method of preserving food. Bacteria evolved in environments where the concentration of sugars and salts is the same as or lower than those inside the cell. High sugar concentrations cause the bacterium to lose water by osmosis and it doesn’t have any cellular machinery to pump it back in against the osmotic gradient. Without enough water, the bacteria can’t grow or divide. So, theoretically, bacteria will soon zombify and die when on sugar so it is a bit of a non issue. Plus, by the time you throw the priming sugar drops in the beer there should be enough alcohol in solution already to kill off what the sugar itself has not had a chance to take care of.

Also, shouldn't you be sanitizing your fingers and the container that your carb drops are stored in before use? hmmmmm? Anything that touches your beer after cooling should be sanitized if practical.

 

[woozy]

When I used to line up for an immunization shot the nurse would "sanitize" my arm where the needle with an alcohol swab. Your beer contains alcohol now plus it should be acidic and have CO2 over the top of it. Very few organisms can survive in that environment. Just drop your carbonation tabs in.

Ah, by that logic we don't need to sanitize our bottles either. That'll save a lot of work.

 

[woozy]

Also, shouldn't you be sanitizing your fingers and the container that your carb drops are stored in before use? hmmmmm? Anything that touches your beer after cooling should be sanitized if practical.

Sanitation isn't suspended animation. I'll admit it never occurred to me to sanitize the container I keep my carbonation drops in three months ago. However if it had, the carbonation tabs would have had plenty of exposure to the air in the months since. Likewise I'd have to allow the container to dry before I put the carb tabs in (which I guess I could have done with a dishwasher) but this is getting into sanitizing the inside of rubber gloves territory.

 

[DrunkleJon]

Its all about minimizing exposure within reason.

 

[RM-MN]

Ah, by that logic we don't need to sanitize our bottles either. That'll save a lot of work.

Note that I said that very few organisms can survive that environment, not that none can. You still need to sanitize your bottles.

 

[GASoline71]

What's a "Jailhose"?

Carbonation drops have been being used for a looooooooong time with no ill effects. Or no one would use them.

Gary

 

[woozy]

Its all about minimizing exposure within reason.

's okay. You and JohnSand still win the epistoftamology degree. Though I think sanitizing storage containers that contain material that can not sustain microbes is going a bit far.

 

[woozy]

What's a "Jailhose"?

It's what convicts use for leggings, of course.

Carbonation drops have been being used for a looooooooong time with no ill effects. Or no one would use them.

That sounds like the talk of a secular rationalist and not the doctrine of a fanatic true believer.

 

[GASoline71]

LOL!

Gary

 

[DrunkleJon]

's okay. You and JohnSand still win the epistoftamology degree. Though I think sanitizing storage containers that contain material that can not sustain microbes is going a bit far.

'scalled sarcasm. I was taking the idea of sanitization and taking it waaaay too far. I mean, dont you all take your bres into the basement and use a flashlight to look for bacteria in the air, and put on lotion and double sanitized gloves, and... like in that youtube video?

 

[woozy]

Well, if a metal spoon can pick up microbes by touching the counter then carb drops can pick up microbes by touching a glass jar...

We're half way there with "microbes can't survive on sugar" but then microbes can't survive (long) on clean metal and porcelin either. And we're *practically* there with "they're tiny and you are immersing them directly into alcohol". But I don't know if we're there as far as *doctrine* goes. It does seem to be one thing we're willing to say "oh, forget it" to.

Or am I wrong.? Does sugar actually *kill* microbes? I don't think so.

 

[Jayslay]

Just consider the carb-drops as a possible vector for contamination, although a minor one. In all experiments it's important to list your vectors for error/contamination. If you arn't getting infected bottles, then it is a very minor variable. If you are getting infected bottles, I would look at your vectors.

By logic, yes, bacteria and fungal spores could deposit on the drop. They also float in every square cm of air. So you wash your bottles, sanitize and drip dry? Well once they are dry they will again start collecting spores, dust and bacteria. It s unavoidable outside of a closed laboratory system. The fact of the beer being extremely hostile to micro-orgasnisms is what is actually preventing the majority of infections, with the minority of those prevented through good sanitizing practices.

If you stop sanitizing your bottles, you are putting each and every bottle at a small risk, but multiplied over 20-60 bottles, your risk goes up. Its just science, and math?

 

[JohnSand]

Well, if a metal spoon can pick up microbes by touching the counter then carb drops can pick up microbes by touching a glass jar...

We're half way there with "microbes can't survive on sugar" but then microbes can't survive (long) on clean metal and porcelin either. And we're *practically* there with "they're tiny and you are immersing them directly into alcohol". But I don't know if we're there as far as *doctrine* goes. It does seem to be one thing we're willing to say "oh, forget it" to.

Or am I wrong.? Does sugar actually *kill* microbes? I don't think so.

I sort of think it does. (You've sucked me back in again!)
I think infections can survive almost indefinitely on a counter or a spoon. I believe that those environmemts are neutral, and the sugar is hostile. But, hey, I'm only a high school graduate, and that long ago.

 

[woozy]

I sort of think it does. (You've sucked me back in again!)
I think infections can survive almost indefinitely on a counter or a spoon. I believe that those environmemts are neutral, and the sugar is hostile. But, hey, I'm only a high school graduate, and that long ago.

I don't know either. But there is stable, neutral, inhospitable, hospitable, desirable, etc. Most dry clean surfaces are neutral, I imagine. Microbes can land on 'em but they don't really thrive. A damp rag will have billions of microbes whereas a clean metal spoon will only have a few million. Places become desirable when they start getting dirty and wet. Rough surfaces especially. If someone were to tell me sugar becomes toxic to microbes when it gets wet ... well, I'd have heard stranger true things. Toss a clean metal spoon into wort and the millions of microbes will wake up and get happy. (Maybe... a million is actually a very small number.) Toss in a carb drop and the million of microbes first get wet, and then die in the resulting sucrose crush. Maybe... what the **** do I know.

Meanwhile don't toss damp rags into your wort.

 

[JohnSand]

What I got from that is: "Desirable...dirty...wet...rough". Excuse me. "Honey!, come here now!"

I think the dry sugar is hostile, so you're safe from the start.

 

[woozy]

Talked to a friend. Sugar is a bad place for a microbe to be.

 

[harry_the_face]

In order to keep this thread alive.... Isn't wills yeast the biggest worry? It does like the wort/sugar and it is in the air too?

My thought is that while the tabs could be a contaminant the quantity of contaminants is to low to effect the flavor of the beer.

After all the reason beer was so popular in history is becuase all the water was contaminated but beer could be consumed with no ill effects (well at least not an effect that people didn't want).

 

[FightinIrish]

This feels like a troll started this thread.

 

[kaconga]

I had an infection recently that I traced back to either my bottling wand or the carb tabs. Neither of which I will use again. Carb tabs are neat in their own right but much more of a pain than boiling sugar with water and racking on top of it. I also ditched the bottling wand. All other plastic used on said batch was also used on next beer before I realized the infection and it is fine.

 

[woozy]

I'm becoming more and more convinced sugar is simply an antiseptic.

Which I'm taking to mean I don't need to add boiling water to priming sugar. (My bottling bucket doesn't like 140+ liquids put in it).

No troll. Just *really* curious.

 

[FightinIrish]

No troll. Just *really* curious.

You've argued with just about every response.

 

[JohnSand]

I don't see it that way. It is an interesting and fun conversation.

 

[cullen]

Which I'm taking to mean I don't need to add boiling water to priming sugar. (My bottling bucket doesn't like 140+ liquids put in it).

You probably don't need to add boiling water to priming sugar if you pour the sugar directly into your bottling bucket. However, if you do that you run the risk of having undisolved sugar and a poor mix of sugar in your beer. This, of course, leads to uneven carbonation.

Dissolving the sugar in water first makes for a better mix. Of course, the water (being a particularly good environment for microbes) needs to be sanitized and sugar dissolves more readily in very hot water than in cold. Using boiling hot water, then, accomplishes both. I personally mix my priming sugar with a little water in an Erlenmeyer flask and heat it on the stove until the sugar dissolves. You can let it cool covered until needed.

If you wait until you have already racked a couple of quarts of beer into your bottling bucket before you add your priming sugar solution, then the bucket will never actually get 140+ degree liquid touching it, which eliminates that particular concern

 

[woozy]

You've argued with just about every response.

Of *course* I argued. That's the entire point of jailhouse lawyering. To debate every angle and extract every single letter of the law.

Look. *obviously* carb tabs are sanitary. Of course beer made with carb tabs are going to be fine. Every-one knows that. ... but why?

The purpose of the thread was to find out why and have fun arguing the fine teeth and the nits. In other words, to jailhouse lawyer.

It *is* a game, you know.

 

[woozy]

You probably don't need to add boiling water to priming sugar if you pour the sugar directly into your bottling bucket. However, if you do that you run the risk of having undisolved sugar and a poor mix of sugar in your beer. ....
If you wait until you have already racked a couple of quarts of beer into your bottling bucket before you add your priming sugar solution, then the bucket will never actually get 140+ degree liquid touching it, which eliminates that particular concern

Right. Definitely want the sugar dissolved. But corn sugar (table sugar not so much) dissolves very easily. Also want the the sugar solution to mix evenly with minimum/no aeration or stirring. Adding sugar water and racking beer onto it takes care of the this. Adding the sugar to the beer after a couple of quarts, maybe not so well. (Or maybe just fine. I don't know.) I was adding boiling water to sanitize the sugar and the cup it was in and the spoon I stir it with. And perhaps I was overly worried about "thermal shock". (they could be referring to large amounts of liquids and not 1/2 a cup of boiling water. But then again my bottling vessel is plastic and I don't want to melt or warp it either. Again I don't know.)

If sugar is naturally antiseptic, which I'm sure it is, then i think I'm safe in thinking that I needn't *boil* the water so much as simply warm it up enough to dissolve the sugar, which it will at say, hot from the tap.

 

[cullen]

I find that if I start racking the beer to the bottling bucket, then add the priming sugar solution while still racking the mix works just fine.