Hefeweizen Questions

[Mozart]

I have a couple of questions regarding hefeweizens. First, I think I read they're better young, but how young? Second, some of the style guidelines I've read suggest carbonation volumes around 4.0 (give or take) and the few batches I've brewed have had much less carbonation. Being a new brewer I have a healthy respect for bottle bombs, so my question is, do I need to be concerned with them at all at this carbonation level? Probably not, I think, as long as I'm sure my initial fermentation is complete, I batch prime evenly, etc., etc., right?

A little background.

The friend who got me into homebrewing less than two short months ago wants to enter a homebrew competition, and I plan on entering as well. Drop-off for the entries should happen about the first week of September, but I'm trying to plan ahead a bit, decide what style I want to compete in, develop a recipe, and perhaps give that recipe a trial run before brewing the final entry.

In terms of process, at this point I'm an extract brewer who sometimes also uses steeping grains. I plan on entering an extract brew in the competition. Yes, I know mini-mash isn't terribly much more difficult and I've already read Revvy's thread, but I'm not looking to take Best of Show here (though I wouldn't turn it down!). What I am most interested in is the feedback from the judges given my current methods. My hope is that this feedback will help me to build a good, solid foundation with my extract brews before I move on to mini-mashes.

Of course you may have guessed by now that I'm thinking of entering a brew in the 15A Weizen/Weissbier category. I chose this category, frankly, because I thoroughly enjoy German wheat beers.

I even have a possible recipe, based on a different one I found on the web. It was all grain, but I've made what I think are decent adjustments to have it be a reasonable extract replication -- or at least as close as I might be able to get given my current process and equipment.

More on the recipe later (unless anyone's dying to see it), but ultimately, should I be at all concerned with bottle bombs given the 4.0 volumes? And if I brew a German wheat for a competition with a Sept. 7th dropoff and a Sept. 21st. judging, when should I brew it?

Enough time to allow for 3 weeks of aging before the 21st? Four? Six?

Also, one other question while I think of it, my current brew pot is a 20 quart, so I usually have a boil volume of about 2.5 gallons and top off from there. Would it be a better idea to scale down the recipe by half and do a full volume boil in my 20 quart for the competition? On the one hand, I loathe having less of it to drink, but on the other, I want to brew the best extract beer I'm currently capable of given my current experience and equipment. If I can pull that off, I'll consider it a success.

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

Yes, 4.0 volumes of c02 is bottle bomb territory with a 100% probability of gushers even if the bottles don't blow up.

Using about 5 ounces of sugar (corn sugar) for priming 5 gallons of beer is a safe amount and will give good carbonation.

 

[TyTanium]

I'd brew it about a month beforehand. Gives 10-14 days for fermentation (generous) and 2+ weeks for bottle conditioning. It'll be fresh and tasty. You could add in another week or two buffer just in case; it won't drop off that much in a week.

And I agree with Yoop on her comments.

 

[gr8shandini]

This is an area where I think the style guide is off. I keg my beers and I tried 3.5 vols the first time out and I thought that was overcarbed compared to the commercial examples I've had. It should be a little "lively", but I think 2.8 to 3.0 is more like it.

As far as timeframe goes, a lot of folks will disagree, but 2 weeks in primary is plenty plus carbonation time. Since you're bottling, I'd say a month to 5 weeks "grain to glass."

Also, you may want to have us or an experienced brewer critique your recipe. If you're converting from all-grain, it may have ingredients that require a mash such as flaked wheat.

 

[Mozart]

This is an area where I think the style guide is off. I keg my beers and I tried 3.5 vols the first time out and I thought that was overcarbed compared to the commercial examples I've had. It should be a little "lively", but I think 2.8 to 3.0 is more like it.

As far as timeframe goes, a lot of folks will disagree, but 2 weeks in primary is plenty plus carbonation time. Since you're bottling, I'd say a month to 5 weeks "grain to glass."

Also, you may want to have us or an experienced brewer critique your recipe. If you're converting from all-grain, it may have ingredients that require a mash such as flaked wheat.

Thanks everyone!

I *definitely* will not try carbonating to 4 volumes!

I like the idea of 2.8 or so, still effervescent, but I imagine judges take a dim view of beer gushering all over their shirts!

First, I'll provide a link to the recipe I'm basing mine on, and it does involve grains that need to be mashed. Then I'll list mine. I'd also like to list the reasons I chose what I chose, as a critique of my reasoning might help me learn more than a simple critique of the recipe.

The original:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/skills/10-award-winning-home-brew-recipes#slide-7

Ingredients:
5 pounds German pilsner
5 pounds wheat malt
.25 ounces Hallertuaer Mittelfrüh hops pellets (3 percent AA), 90 minutes
.75 ounces Hallertuaer Mittelfrüh hops pellet (3 percent AA), 60 minutes
WLP380 Hefeweizen IV ale yeast

Since I'm an extract brewer, I took a peek at Breiss Bavarian Wheat DME composition. It stated 65% malted wheat and 35% malted barley. The recipe above is 50% wheat, the balance Pilsner malt. Wanting to get as close as I could to this profile (which is also the minimum wheat content per German law listed in the BJCP style guidelines, with the balance also being Pilsner just like the above), I figured out the ratio of Wheat DME to Pilsner DME that I'd need to have 50% wheat in my extracts and still be very close to the recipe's OG of 1.046 (Brewer's Friend shows OG of 1.050 for my approximation).

What I came up with for the fermentables turned out to be:

4.5 lb. Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
1.5 lb. Briess Pilsnen Malt DME

The Pilsen Malt DME also contains some CaraPils, per the Briess website which I've read might be helpful for my head retention. I understand my Pilsner malt content isn't 50%, but at least I have the plain barley malt content from the wheat DME down to about 25% of my overall grain profile.

The one thing I'm not sure about yet is whether I want to steep any CaraPils. If I do, whatever OG the steeping adds I plan reduce the Pilsen Malt DME accordingly to hit the target 1.050 OG and still be 50% wheat. Feedback here would certainly be helpful!

I have BeerSmith at home and I'll confirm it with that program, but when I plugged the grain bill above into Brewer's Friend, I overshot my IBU's (probably because Brewer's Friend assumes 3.75% AA where as the above recipe is 3.0%). Either way, my plan is simple, a single hop addition of Hallertuaer Mittelfrüh at the beginning of my 60 minute boil, at the quantity I need based on the AA content to get the recipe's listed 13 IBU. I chose just the single addition at the beginning of boil because the BJCP guidelines for aroma state that Noble hop character ranges from low to none.

Since I am fortunate enough to have a fermenation chiller, I plan on following the above recipe's fermentation temperature procedure precisely. This is:

Make 1 liter of starter wort and aerate it on a stir plate. Add oxygen in-line as the wort was transferred from the chiller to the carboy. Pitch yeast at 58 F. Allow fermentation to rise to 62 F for the first three days. Raise temperature to 65 F for four more days. Then raise to 68 F to clean up any off flavors. Drop temperature to 34 F for three days to crash yeast, proteins, and tannins.

Now, I've never made a starter, don't have a stir plate, and have never oxygenated in-line, so my plan is to simply double-pitch the yeast. I do understand how important fermentation is, especially to a German wheat where the yeast is arguably the star of the show, but I'm hopeful that by double-pitching (2 vials for a 5 gallon batch) I might make up for some of the shortcomings inherent in my process.

So there you have it, Mozart's Hefeweizen. Critique away! I would be very appreciative of any and all feedback.

Cheers!

 

[slarkin712]

First, no carapils are needed in a German hefe recipe. The wheat provides all the body that you will want. Second, yeast health and pitching rate is very important for a German hefe. I would advise you to do some research on this subject. There is a lot of good and bad information on hefe yeast pitching rates, so be wary. In my own research I've found that a pitching rate of 5-7 million cells/mL is an accepted rate to get the banana and clove flavors. So, if you're doing a 5 gallon batch that would be ~90-130 billion cells. One yeast vial typically contains 100 billion cells. If you have a fresh vial, I think that is all you will need. Overpitching yeast in a hefe can give a blah estery taste, I know from experience. Here's a good thread with discussion on pitching rates:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.0. Thirdly, the introduction of oxygen to the chilled wort is important as well. This is something I'm still playing with. My experience has been that adding too much oxygen takes away from the banana flavor. This is related to yeast growth, another topic you could research.
Your process looks good in that you're thoroughly planning and thinking about each part of producing a good hefe. I'd say do a test batch soon and adjust accordingly for the comp in September. Good luck!

 

[Mozart]

First, no carapils are needed in a German hefe recipe. The wheat provides all the body that you will want. Second, yeast health and pitching rate is very important for a German hefe. I would advise you to do some research on this subject. There is a lot of good and bad information on hefe yeast pitching rates, so be wary. In my own research I've found that a pitching rate of 5-7 million cells/mL is an accepted rate to get the banana and clove flavors. So, if you're doing a 5 gallon batch that would be ~90-130 billion cells. One yeast vial typically contains 100 billion cells. If you have a fresh vial, I think that is all you will need. Overpitching yeast in a hefe can give a blah estery taste, I know from experience. Here's a good thread with discussion on pitching rates:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.0. Thirdly, the introduction of oxygen to the chilled wort is important as well. This is something I'm still playing with. My experience has been that adding too much oxygen takes away from the banana flavor. This is related to yeast growth, another topic you could research.
Your process looks good in that you're thoroughly planning and thinking about each part of producing a good hefe. I'd say do a test batch soon and adjust accordingly for the comp in September. Good luck!

If no CaraPils are needed and I want to try to get as close to the 50/50 Wheat/Pilsner profile as I can, would you suggest sticking with what I came up with knowing there's some CaraPils in the Pilsner DME or would you substitute the Pilsner DME for regular old Extra Light DME? If I do that, I would be abandoning the Pilsner wheat in favor of reducing the CaraPils so I'm not sure of the best approach. I'm guessing you'd recommend against steeping any CaraPils.

I read a thread, here I think, about olive oil potentially replacing oxygenation, but the quantities suggested were so small as to be practically unmeasurable for a 5 gallon batch. I guess I could try it, but I think over oxygenation would be a risk. Perhaps I'll consider picking up an aquarium pump and some tubing.

Thank you very much, and if anyone has any other feedback, I'm all ears!

Cheers!

 

[LLBeanJ]

I agree with slarkin. Pitch rate is important with this style and I'd skip oxygenation altogether. Get yourself a fresh vial that has been produced within the previous 30 days or so and pitch it without a starter. Pitch and ferment at 62 for 48 hours then ramp to 70 until finished. Your extract conversion appears to be spot on, same with your hops plan. Don't bother with the Carapils.

 

[slarkin712]

Don't worry about the carapils that is present in the pilsner DME. I'd suggest sticking with what you have. Many people have made very good hefes using DME that contains some carapils. If it were me, I'd go with 100% wheat DME just to make things simple.
I'd strongly advise against using olive oil. This is not well tested and requires an extremely accurate measurement. I don't think a hefe needs much oxygen anyway, so just dumping the wort into your fermentor will be fine. If you're really concerned about adding oxygen you can just pour the wort between 2 buckets a few times or fill up a bucket with a lid and shake it up.

 

[Mozart]

Don't worry about the carapils that is present in the pilsner DME. I'd suggest sticking with what you have. Many people have made very good hefes using DME that contains some carapils. If it were me, I'd go with 100% wheat DME just to make things simple.
I'd strongly advise against using olive oil. This is not well tested and requires an extremely accurate measurement. I don't think a hefe needs much oxygen anyway, so just dumping the wort into your fermentor will be fine. If you're really concerned about adding oxygen you can just pour the wort between 2 buckets a few times or fill up a bucket with a lid and shake it up.

I'm all for keeping it simple!

I actually have a hefe on day #5 of fermentation brewed with 100% Wheat DME so I'm thinking of brewing the next one with the grain profile in this thread and seeing which one I like better.

The one fermenting is with a different yeast strain, While Labs Bavarian Weizen (WLP351), and a different but I think similar hop (Tettnanger), so I'll be switching out more than one thing at a time and slightly complicate the comparison, but it's a start!

Thanks again for your help everyone!

Cheers!

 

[eluterio]

So, I have two things to share on this topic from my own experiences. I just switch to all grain and hef was my first recipe to test my equipment. In comparison to both batches I did one single infusion and the other single decoction. The second batch I did I added yeast nutrients to the mix. I was told to use it to help with active fermentation. Like yourself I don’t have the capabilities to oxygenate my wort yet and figured let do a test run. The first batch took longer to begin to ferment. The second was quick less than 12 hours and exploded out of my airlock. In fact the banana esters where extremely noticeable with the second batch. I haven’t done a sit down side by side comparison that’s for this weekend.

 

[gr8shandini]

I agree with slarkin. The conventional wisdom on pitching rates gives a cell count intended to give a clean tasting beer with minimal esters. But that's the opposite of what you're looking for with a Hefe. I've had really good results with just a smack pack of Wyeast Bavarian Ale. I just ferment at 64 degrees (beer temp) the whole way through. It finishes out just fine, so I don't see a need to ramp it up.

Also, I'd forgo the cold crash on this one. The "Hefe" in Hefeweizen means yest, so you want to make sure that there's plenty in the bottle for the judges to swirl up, if that's their preference. Similarly, most people expect a little cloudiness with this style. A tip I heard on the Brewstrong podcast is to add about a 1/2 a cup of good old AP flour directly to the boil kettle. The starches and proteins will give it a permanent haze and aid a bit in head retention (which you can never have enough of in a Hefe). The beer will be just as good without it, but it might get you the full 3 points under appearance in a competition.

 

[Mozart]

I agree with slarkin. The conventional wisdom on pitching rates gives a cell count intended to give a clean tasting beer with minimal esters. But that's the opposite of what you're looking for with a Hefe. I've had really good results with just a smack pack of Wyeast Bavarian Ale. I just ferment at 64 degrees (beer temp) the whole way through. It finishes out just fine, so I don't see a need to ramp it up.

Also, I'd forgo the cold crash on this one. The "Hefe" in Hefeweizen means yest, so you want to make sure that there's plenty in the bottle for the judges to swirl up, if that's their preference. Similarly, most people expect a little cloudiness with this style. A tip I heard on the Brewstrong podcast is to add about a 1/2 a cup of good old AP flour directly to the boil kettle. The starches and proteins will give it a permanent haze and aid a bit in head retention (which you can never have enough of in a Hefe). The beer will be just as good without it, but it might get you the full 3 points under appearance in a competition.

I hand't thought about the flour, thanks for the tip! Perhaps I'll give it a shot. One thing I had planned on was not being too picky about not chilling my wort terribly quickly. I figured a little chill haze in a hefe wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Cheers!

 

[dracus]

I am rather fond of whitelabs #300.