I’ve been thinking of using Polyclar VT with whirlfloc at end of boil. Anyone else doing this?
I did it my last batch (although I used Polyclar 730 a PVPP and SIlica gel) It resulted in a very compact trub and thus a particularly clear wort going into the fermenter. The thing that prompted me to try it was i had run out of brewbrite which as far as I can tell is just the same thing a mixture of PVPP and a carageenan. Its really interesting because I have seen other brewers using PVPP near the end of the boil with a carageenen like whirflock, protofloc etc but the directions for using Polyclar are usually after fermentation has been complete. I think the idea with Polyclar VT is that because of its larger size its intended to trap yeast as well. Would be really interested to here of any experiences with it. What prompted you to try a PVPP near the end of the boil if you don't mind me asking.
The link provided above is what gave the idea to try PVPP near the end of the boil. You posted a few weeks back in another thread.
I am concerned with the claim from the study’s that PVPP strips flavonoids. Tho, Ashland claims it does not strip flavonoids.
“As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active pro- anthocyanidins, i.e. relatively”
What dose PVPP and carageenan are you using? I have whirlfloc on hand
Where do you get the idea larger particle size is intended to drop yeast? The link below suggests it is larger in size to help facilitate the stabilizer dropping
https://atpgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Polyclar-VT.pdf
I was using one protofloc tablet and 5g of PVPP per 23L batch at 10 minutes. This according to the pdf may not be optimal. I have yet to work out what is. I read the following on a commercial description for Polyclar VT
A non-soluble clarifier that removes both haze causing polyphenols as well as yeast cells. https://www.morebeer.com/products/polyclar-vt-pvpp-1-oz.html
The link provided above is what gave the idea to try PVPP near the end of the boil. You posted a few weeks back in another thread.
I am concerned with the claim from the study’s that PVPP strips flavonoids. Tho, Ashland claims it does not strip flavonoids.
“As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active pro- anthocyanidins, i.e. relatively”
What dose PVPP and carageenan are you using? I have whirlfloc on hand
Where do you get the idea larger particle size is intended to drop yeast? The link below suggests it is larger in size to help facilitate the stabilizer dropping
https://atpgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Polyclar-VT.pdf
1. I observe a natural decrease in pH throughout the course of the boil. This is typically 5.4 in beginning to 5.2 at the end. Interesting you point out hop utilization, i guess its a decision of whats most important?I must admit that I cannot recall having tried Gallotannins in the kettle ( I think i did once), mash and sparge always. I really should keep some notes. From what I can discern,
1. Kettle pH at the end of boil should be about 5.0.to 5.2, this is optimal for precipitation of proteins. ( I read that a slightly higher pH is better for hop utilization pH 5.6, so perhaps having a slightly higher mash at the beginning of the boil and reduce it near the end if needed is the way to go)
2. According to the pdf Mash should be about 5.2 @63C also for enhanced freshness (which is kind of weird because we are outside the optimal range for alpha amylase (5.3 to 5.5) in both pH and temperature)
3. 5g/hL of Gallotannins is better than 10g/hL (about 1g per 20litrs (5 gallon batch))
4. A short time with PVPP (3 mins) is more effective that a longer time. Why? I cannot say.
Its really interesting for it would be really awesome if we saw real benefits of upstream care in respect to 'chill proofing' and improving colloidal stability for once that beer goes to serving keg under spunge we don't really want to be messing about with it.
I understand this as the addition of PVVP is beneficial in areas regarding the decrease of polyphenols and proanthocyanidins, and as a result MAY BE detrimental in others areas with an observed decrease of flavanoids. I have read people noticing the reduction of flavor, they attribute the flavor as the green vegetable flavor however i take caution as this is anecdotal.Can you be as kind as to confirm my suspicions because to be honest I am not a scientist nor very brainy.
PVPP is used as stabilising agent because of its ability to bind with haze active polyphenols. PVPP has a structure similar to peptidically linked proline chain [11, 12, 15, 26]. Addition of PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols in the finished beers [12]. As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active proanthocyanidins, i.e. relatively 40 % compared to the reference beer, can already be noticed after a short contact time of 3 min during wort boiling. A contact time of 5 min results in a less efficient removal of the haze-active proanthocyanidins. The effect of PVPP treatment is also expressed by the strong decrease in reducing power of the resulting beers D and E (see Table 3, results obtained by TRAP and DPPH assays). This may result in a diminished flavour stability of these beers. Flavanoids in beer are expected to scavenge active oxygen species and prevent the oxidation of beer components during storage [21]. According to Mikyska et al. [16], both malt and hop polyphenols suppress formation of ageing carbonyls during the brewing process and upon beer storage. In particular polyphenols such as catechin and procyanidin B-3 (both flavanoids) act as powerful antioxidants, thereby protecting other components towards oxidation [16, 30,31]. Finally, levels of sensitive proteins also seem to be affected in the finished beers by the treatment with PVPP at the end of wort boiling.
So what does this mean,? that for two specific beers D and E in the trial the reduction in polyphenols/flavanoids was so pronounced that it may actually be detrimental to flavour stability for the reasons cited?
1. I observe a natural decrease in pH throughout the course of the boil. This is typically 5.4 in beginning to 5.2 at the end. Interesting you point out hop utilization, i guess its a decision of whats most important?
2. I usually target 5.4 ph as its the middle ground from a few different sources. This batch I will target 5.2 pH. As you mention its a bit low but still within range IMO. Martin sources in BruNwater that a mash pH of 5.2 may assist in achieving tart or crisp beers. Crisp sounds good for this particular pale ale. I step mash and ensure focus on beta enzymes, do you happen to know ideal pH for these?
3. I use .15g per gal gallotannins. This converts to .75g/5gal batch. Maybe ill raise this up a bit since it seems im on the lower side?
4. Not sure why a 3min contact is superior to 5min. I feel more data points are needed to say for certain.
I understand this as the addition of PVVP is beneficial in areas regarding the decrease of polyphenols and proanthocyanidins, and as a result MAY BE detrimental in others areas with an observed decrease of flavanoids. I have read people noticing the reduction of flavor, they attribute the flavor as the green vegetable flavor however i take caution as this is anecdotal.
Did you see this in the conclusion?Can you be as kind as to confirm my suspicions because to be honest I am not a scientist nor very brainy.
PVPP is used as stabilising agent because of its ability to bind with haze active polyphenols. PVPP has a structure similar to peptidically linked proline chain [11, 12, 15, 26]. Addition of PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols in the finished beers [12]. As shown in table 3 and figure 3, application of PVPP at the end of wort boiling is related to a considerable decrease in total polyphenols, flavanoids, and haze-active proanthocyanidins in the finished beers. A pronounced decrease in haze-active proanthocyanidins, i.e. relatively 40 % compared to the reference beer, can already be noticed after a short contact time of 3 min during wort boiling. A contact time of 5 min results in a less efficient removal of the haze-active proanthocyanidins. The effect of PVPP treatment is also expressed by the strong decrease in reducing power of the resulting beers D and E (see Table 3, results obtained by TRAP and DPPH assays). This may result in a diminished flavour stability of these beers. Flavanoids in beer are expected to scavenge active oxygen species and prevent the oxidation of beer components during storage [21]. According to Mikyska et al. [16], both malt and hop polyphenols suppress formation of ageing carbonyls during the brewing process and upon beer storage. In particular polyphenols such as catechin and procyanidin B-3 (both flavanoids) act as powerful antioxidants, thereby protecting other components towards oxidation [16, 30,31]. Finally, levels of sensitive proteins also seem to be affected in the finished beers by the treatment with PVPP at the end of wort boiling.
So what does this mean,? that for two specific beers D and E in the trial the reduction in polyphenols/flavanoids was so pronounced that it may actually be detrimental to flavour stability for the reasons cited?
My goodness I don't know how I could have missed that. It appears that there is no negative effect despite the dramatic decrease in flavinoids by the use of PVPP and ageing was similar to those treated without it which is interesting because our understanding is that flaviniods are excellent at slowing down stalling because of their reducing capacity. Gallotannins scored awesomely in aging tests which could be because they are awesome at reducing.
My goodness I don't know how I could have missed that. It appears that there is no negative effect despite the dramatic decrease in flavinoids by the use of PVPP and ageing was similar to those treated without it which is interesting because our understanding is that flaviniods are excellent at slowing down stalling because of their reducing capacity. Gallotannins scored awesomely in aging tests which could be because they are awesome at reducing.
@MSK_Chess, are you still messing with PVPP?
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