Pilsner v pale ale base malt differences?

[deeve007]

G'day brewer buddies!!

Have googled a bit, and read a few threads on this forum where it's mentioned briefly, but am hoping to get some specific input from more knowledgeable brewers than I on the main differences one would discern between pilsner and pale ale as a base malt within the same recipe otherwise?

(light beer recipes predominantly, obviously darker beers may have less noticeable differences due to other flavours dominating)

Cheers.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Pale malt is darker and has a toasted biscuit flavor that is not found in Pilsner malt.

I know this isn't a perfect conversion, but when I want more of the color and flavor of Pale malt from my Pilsner malt, I use 96% Pilsner malt and 4% Briess Victory malt and call it Pale malt. YMMV

And for Vienna (like) malt from Pilsner malt you might try 96% Pilsner, 2% Melanoidin, and 2% Victory. Again, its not perfect, and YMMV

Necessity is the mother of invention....

 

[hopjuice_71]

Pale malt is darker and has a toasted biscuit flavor that is not found in Pilsner malt.

I know this isn't a perfect conversion, but when I want more of the color and flavor of Pale malt from my Pilsner malt, I use 96% Pilsner malt and 4% Briess Victory malt and call it Pale malt. YMMV

And for Vienna (like) malt from Pilsner malt you might try 96% Pilsner, 2% Melanoidin, and 2% Victory. Again, its not perfect, and YMMV

Necessity is the mother of invention....

This is what I do as well. I started using pilsner as my base for almost all of my beers years ago. Used as a palette you can tweak it like @Silver_Is_Money said to generate pretty much anything you want - maximum versatility. Though I do keep Maris Otter on hand for NEIPAs and bitters (I've found it hard to replicate MO).

 

[deeve007]

I'm looking forward to trying Maris Otter one day, but not available in my current location unfortunately.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If I was in a bind and needed a Maris Otter 'like' substitute, I might initially try 96% Pilsner, 3% Victory, and 1% Melanoidin. The only way to find out if this actually works reasonably well would be to brew otherwise identical single malt Maris Otter vs. the blended 96/3/1 malt (also identically moderately hopped) beers side by side, one with the real thing, and one with the blended substitute. Perhaps Brulosophy might get inspired to try this. Lately their experiments have become less and less relevant to the needs of the home brewer, and they need something to kick start them back to relevance. (where relevance here is unrelated to 'p', and more akin to trivial or boring)

 

[Gnomebrewer]

There's a lot of variation between different maltsters within each malt type. Bestmalz pils malt has a strong flavour of it's own (grainy-hay like) that (IMO) wouldn't work with Silver's method. Weyermann is also quite a dominant flavour. Australian domestic pils malt (Joe White export pils) is very bland (I suspect North American stuff would be similar). Ale malts in general are a bit 'richer' tasting and traditionally malty. Some (like MO) are more biscuity than others. Once you're back in Aus, Joe White Traditional Ale malt is a really good malt - IMO as good as MO - it's also (alongside export pils malt) normally the cheapest malt you can get.

So, as a base malt in light beers, I'd avoid high-quality continental pilsner malt unless you want the grainy flavour (which I do in sours, pilsners, hefes, kolsch, sometimes in Belgians.....sometimes other beers as well - it depends what flavours are being targetted). If you use cheap local pils malt, it's basically tastless and needs a bit more specialty malt. Ale malts can stand on their own as single malts quite comfortable and need less specialty malt. If a recipe calls for '2-row' as the base malt, and you're using ale malt, you need to decide how to adapt it to allow for the extra maltiness from the base grain.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I occasionally make my own Victory "like" Biscuit malt by toasting (dry roasting) a pound or two of base malt in my electric oven at 250 degrees F. (~120 degrees C.) for 60 minutes with convection. Vienna malt works well with this method. Preheat the oven, verify that the temperature is in the proper ballpark, and then spread the base malt out thin on a pre-heated cookie sheet. Stir briefly and right quickly only once at the 30 minute mark. Don't leave the oven door open too long such that temperature falls. That's what my pH meter is sitting in when you look at my avatar. The DI_pH of the avatar batch was 5.07.

Edit: Click on the thumbnail below to enlarge the image.

 

[brewbama]

I began using Full Pint Brewer’s malt as the base in most of my beers. I’ve even brewed a Pils-style Lager with it which turned out very good. I wanted to try it based on a Brulosophy comparison. Glad I did.

The biggest difference in maltsters is the source grain. German maltsters use European two row barley varieties (Barke, Hanna, Isaria, etc) while N American malsters use N American grown 2 row barley varieties (Copeland, Harrington, Metcalf, Full Pint, etc). The malt house processes are very similar but there are a bazillion varieties (Chevalier, Maris Otter, Golden Promise, and on and on) from all over the world. Many malsters blend varieties to get desired brewhouse properties.

Some fairly similar products from different malsters can be substituted with reasonable confidence. For example Carafoam and CaraPils are basically brand names but can be substituted depending on what your store caries. Likewise, ‘Carafa II’ is another maltsters ‘Chocolate’, ‘CaraHell’ is C10, and on and on... it’s just branding to create perceived quality.

 

[InspectorJon]

For what it is worth, they found little difference: Brulosophy Pale Malt (2-Row) vs. Pilsner Malt

 

[Vale71]

Yes, they found little difference in a single experiment where they added specialty malts and used a very characterful yeast (California Common) and thus confirmed that the subtle differences get easily masked by other factors.
Now if only they had bothered to brew an actual Pils with 100% base malt...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Brulosophy found a huge difference between Maris Otter and domestic US 2-Row. But in my opinion they should make single malt beers and hop mildly to moderately when comparing base malts. In the end it mattered little, as 10 testers liked each beer.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/06/06/gr...ter-vs-domestic-us-2-row-exbeeriment-results/

 

[brewbama]

Yes, they found little difference in a single experiment where they added specialty malts and used a very characterful yeast (California Common) and thus confirmed that the subtle differences get easily masked by other factors. [emoji57][emoji41]
Now if only they had bothered to brew an actual Pils with 100% base malt...

For me, the subtle differences aren’t enough to source a homebrew supply house full of ingredients. I had Brewer’s malt so I brewed a Pils-style Lager with Brewer’s malt. It’s a very good beer and I wouldn’t hesitate to brew it again.

 

[deeve007]

For me, the subtle differences aren’t enough to source a homebrew supply house full of ingredients.

I think this is the most important thing about their experiments: They are showing that those of us that don't want to have every grain under the sun in stock, or possibly don't have access to every grain under the sun, it's quite possible to switch out malts and create a similar beer end product.

Even talking with a few commercial brewers in my area, they differ with their base malt for their IPAs, a couple prefering pilsner, a couple pale ale. Interesting to hear that...

 

[jcav]

The continental pilsner malt I use I think is more of a clean neutral base that has a light crackery-sweet quality without being highly grainy or bready. Sometimes I can pick up a very light honey flavor in the background. Pale ale is slightly darker a little more malty and some graininess. Just depends on what your brewing and each malt has its place. It would be great to use each one in the same recipe but separate batches, to see which one you prefer.


John

 

[deeve007]

It would be great to use each one in the same recipe but separate batches, to see which one you prefer.

Yep this I definitely intend to do at some stage, once I find myself a recipe that I truly love and want to "fine tune" to improve ...etc.

 

[eric19312]

For what it is worth, they found little difference: Brulosophy Pale Malt (2-Row) vs. Pilsner Malt

Remember Brulosophy eliminates visual differences from their comparisons. One key difference between pils and pale/brewers malt/2-row is color. I’m using mostly Pilsner malt these days aiming for very lightly colored beers.