Only One Keg Pouring Foam--Not the Line, Tap, Temp, PSI. Help me, HBT, you're my only hope!

[tennesseean_87]

I'm still new at this, but I'm flummoxed. I ahve one beer pouring 3/4 foam and 1/4 flat beer.

I've got a 3 tap setup with a tower. First pour is always a bit more foamy, but fine. Two lines are pouring very well. One is a belgian golden strong at 12 psi and the other is a stout at 7 psi. The problem beer (red ale) is also at 7 psi. I have temp probe in a water bottle and set to ~4.3C=39.X F. I just measured the temp with a multimeter and thermocouple and both the stout and red read (hahaha) 49F on the outside of the keg. To reiterate, two beers are pouring fine.

Other details: I'm using intertap flow control faucets. I have used 50' total of Accuflex bev seal ultra 3/16". IIRC, the Belgian has about 21', the stout about 17', and the red (foamy) about 12'. I have adjusted the flow rate on the faucets, and both the Belgian and Stout pour faster with less foam.

I have ruled out an issue with the line and the faucet by pouring the stout through the red faucet and pouring the red through the stout faucet. The issue is with the beer or the keg. Stout pours fine through the red tap/line and red pours crummily through the stout tap/line.

The issue began with my last beer, an IPA with keg hops. I assumed the issue was the keg hops, removed them after a few weeks, and finished off the keg. It was pretty foamy. After I kicked the keg, I brewed the red, and put it in my spare keg, not the one the IPA had been in. It poured well as it was finishing carbonating, but after about two weeks on gas got unreasonably foamy (IPA did similar--fine at first, then foamy).

The red had no dry hops or keg hops, but 3+ oz in the boil and whirlpool. I then crash cooled and fined with gelatin a day before packaging.

I think it has to be an issue with turbulence in the keg or something, because swapping lines and taps didn't help. I've swapped posts, swapped poppet o-rings on the keg, and swapped the disconnect, but it's still super foamy.

What else could be the issue? Something with trub and the dip tube? Would taking a few mm off the dip tube help? This keg was pouring fine with a Baltic porter in it at a higher carbonation level (on the stout line and faucet). I have no idea what could be going on.

 

[lump42]

Are you using a gas manifold or secondary/multi-body regulator?

 

[tennesseean_87]

Are you using a gas manifold or secondary/multi-body regulator?

Dual pressure feeding 12 to the Belgian and 7 to a two way manifold for stout and red.

 

[Dland]

Something to check;,.. if seal or O ring on top of dip tube in keg has failed, it could result in gas injection into line.

 

[day_trippr]

^that^

Specifically, the small O-ring under the long (beer) dip tube flange if damaged (or outright missing) will allow CO2 under pressure in the keg head space to be injected into the beer stream at the Out post...

Cheers!

 

[tennesseean_87]

^that^

Specifically, the small O-ring under the long (beer) dip tube flange if damaged (or outright missing) will allow CO2 under pressure in the keg head space to be injected into the beer stream at the Out post...

Cheers!

Thanks for the tip. I'll double check, but I replaced the o-rings on all these kegs 2-3 beers ago. I also didn't notice it when changing posts. Is there a general rule about how tight to screw the post down? Would too loose or too tight have a similar effect to failed o-ring?

 

[day_trippr]

I'm pretty sure most if not all of my keg posts bottom out when fully tightened. There needs to be enough compression put on the top of the dip tube flange to expand that small O-ring outwards so it seals to the inside of the post...

Cheers!

 

[ba-brewer]

Have you tried swapping which regulator is used to feed the manifold and the keg? Do you have anything to check the pressure of the regulators?

7psi seems like it might give a slightly lightly carbonated beer even at 39F, if your beer is closer to 50 it would even less. It does not explain all of the foam but it might explain the flatness.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Have you tried swapping which regulator is used to feed the manifold and the keg? Do you have anything to check the pressure of the regulators?

7psi seems like it might give a slightly lightly carbonated beer even at 39F, if your beer is closer to 50 it would even less. It does not explain all of the foam but it might explain the flatness.

I have not tried this. What doesn’t make sense is the stout off the manifold pours fine and isn’t flat. It’s lightly carbed, just how I want it. This discrepancy between two kegs on the same pressure and same regulator used on the same taps is what gets me.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I was naughty and pulled 6 oz or so for breakfast. after initial foam (expected with tower) it seemed to pour better. Maybe swapping poppet o-rings just took a while to have and effect after everything settled from moving the keg around to do the swap.

Thanks for all the replies. I'll report back as I try later.

 

[ba-brewer]

I have not tried this. What doesn’t make sense is the stout off the manifold pours fine and isn’t flat. It’s lightly carbed, just how I want it. This discrepancy between two kegs on the same pressure and same regulator used on the same taps is what gets me.

I goofed up on which taps where the shared ones. If one of the shared taps seems right from regulator you would assume the pressure is right.

You did have two different kegs with foam issues, but it is possible they could have both had seal issues. Are all of your keg the same kind or are some different?

 

[tennesseean_87]

So the pour I did this afternoon was about half and half foam and beer. Back to the drawing board. I may swap poppets again to make sure there isn't an issue there (I'm not really sure how far the 3-legged things are supposed to go up into the post, and if that will make a difference. Maybe the poppet's not opening far enough and causing turbulence?) I'll double check the dip tube o-ring at that point, too.

I goofed up on which taps where the shared ones. If one of the shared taps seems right from regulator you would assume the pressure is right.

You did have two different kegs with foam issues, but it is possible they could have both had seal issues. Are all of your keg the same kind or are some different?

Below is my attempt at a diagram. CO2 lines indicated by dashes and slashes (at points where the flow splits). Periods are there for spacing.

CO2 --> dual regulator ---12psi to Belgian: Pours fine.
.................................\--7psi to manifold---7psi to Stout: pours fine
. .........................................................\--7psi to Red: pours foamy

I got a 4-pack of used pin-locks and replaced the lid, post, and tube o-rings immediately. I am just now replacing poppet o-rings, and maybe grab universal poppets to make that easier. My guess is that this may be part of the issue, since the poppet o-rings I've pulled all looked sketchy and one leaked when I was swapping lines around to test stuff, which lead me to swap them and order new o-rings.

 

[Electricbrew]

How do you carbonate? Force carb or condition with priming sugar? If sugar, it may be possible it overcarbonated (or maybe FG wasn’t stable and some sugar continued to ferment). If that were the case it would continue to be foamy until you drink enough to equalize the pressure (or you disconnect the co2 and bleed the co2?) Just a thought, not sure if something like that would do it or not...

Edit: I reread and see that the two kegs are connected with a tee, so I suppose if it was over carbed it would equalize between the two. So that may not be the case... thoughts? How long have the two been hooked up together?

 

[tennesseean_87]

How do you carbonate? Force carb or condition with priming sugar? If sugar, it may be possible it overcarbonated (or maybe FG wasn’t stable and some sugar continued to ferment). If that were the case it would continue to be foamy until you drink enough to equalize the pressure (or you disconnect the co2 and bleed the co2?) Just a thought, not sure if something like that would do it or not...

Edit: I reread and see that the two kegs are connected with a tee, so I suppose if it was over carbed it would equalize between the two. So that may not be the case... thoughts? How long have the two been hooked up together?

I think there are check valves in the manifold. I’m force carbing, and it’s not over carbed.

 

[ba-brewer]

Certainly seems like a individual keg problem, but you have had other beer that poured OK for it too. You do have a good puzzle. If you have not done so it is helpful to label or number your kegs so you track problems like this.

Probably has nothing to do with your problem but when you say forced carbing did you use higher pressure to speed thing up or did you just use serving and allow to slowly carbonate?

Again probably nothing to do with your problem but how are you managing your beer lines, any differences between different tap other than the line length?

You moved tap line to different kegs and the problem seem to follow the keg, how long did you leave things in that new configuration? If it was a short time period maybe leaving it in that configuration for a longer time period might show something different.

If your line and tap are warm compared to the beer that will make foam. If you poured two glasses in a row and the second is not foamy that would seem like warm lines and taps.

The amount of foam seems like over carbed but you are getting flat beer. Are you sure the beer is flat? I have had some kegs that have been sitting for a while that appear to pour flat, no head no obvious bubbles, but you can feel the carbonation on your tongue. On closer inspection the carbonation bubble were just very fine making them hard to see.

How does the beer line look after your beer the tap has been sitting for a while, can you see air bubbles in the line or is it solid beer?

 

[bleme]

When you check the o-ring on the dip tube, make sure you put some keg lube on before you put it back together.

 

[LittleRiver]

... Accuflex bev seal ultra 3/16". IIRC, the Belgian [12psi] has about 21', the stout [7 psi] about 17', and the red [7psi] (foamy) about 12'. I have adjusted the flow rate on the faucets, and both the Belgian and Stout pour faster with less foam...

12' at 7psi should be ok.

But the one with the shortest hose is the one giving you problems. Possibly more problem than can be accommodated with the flow control adjustment(?). That said, I have a hard time myself believing this is a hose length issue.

How about the location of your hoses? Is the foamy one in a location that doesn't get as much cooling as the other lines?

Are you using a fan to circulate the air, to reduce temp differentials?

I was naughty and pulled 6 oz or so for breakfast....

Just to clarify for everyone, that is not naughty.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I gave the liquid post an extra crank to make sure it's snug on there and not leaking CO2 into the line. Still poured about 50/50.

Certainly seems like a individual keg problem, but you have had other beer that poured OK for it too. You do have a good puzzle. If you have not done so it is helpful to label or number your kegs so you track problems like this.

Probably has nothing to do with your problem but when you say forced carbing did you use higher pressure to speed thing up or did you just use serving and allow to slowly carbonate?

Again probably nothing to do with your problem but how are you managing your beer lines, any differences between different tap other than the line length?

You moved tap line to different kegs and the problem seem to follow the keg, how long did you leave things in that new configuration? If it was a short time period maybe leaving it in that configuration for a longer time period might show something different.

If your line and tap are warm compared to the beer that will make foam. If you poured two glasses in a row and the second is not foamy that would seem like warm lines and taps.

The amount of foam seems like over carbed but you are getting flat beer. Are you sure the beer is flat? I have had some kegs that have been sitting for a while that appear to pour flat, no head no obvious bubbles, but you can feel the carbonation on your tongue. On closer inspection the carbonation bubble were just very fine making them hard to see.

How does the beer line look after your beer the tap has been sitting for a while, can you see air bubbles in the line or is it solid beer?

I used higher level of CO2 for a few days, but early in my troubleshooting I shut off gas until it was undercarbed, so I KNOW it's not overcarbed. I'm drinking side by side pours with the other beers, and they are more carbed (due to shutting off gas at manifold) and pouring better and faster.

They're all the same Intertap flow control.

All the lines are coiled over the kegs, except the problem line has been placed further back from the door to ensure this isn't the problem. All lines have slighty foamy first pours which I'm OK with. This one just continues to pour foamy, while the others spout some foam, then pour almost all liquid under the 1-2" head.

I did not leave the taps switched. Just changed, poured, and saw that the red keeps pouring foamy even after clearing the line, while the stout pours foamy until line is clear, then pours really well (what I'm used to with the Belgian, too).

The line while pouring has gas in it. a while after pouring you can see gas pockets.

When you check the o-ring on the dip tube, make sure you put some keg lube on before you put it back together.

for sure. I might just pull the tube to check for obstructions, too, although don't know what would have caused that with no dry hops or keg hops and gelatin fining.

12' at 7psi should be ok.

But the one with the shortest hose is the one giving you problems. Possibly more problem than can be accommodated with the flow control adjustment(?). That said, I have a hard time myself believing this is a hose length issue.

How about the location of your hoses? Is the foamy one in a location that doesn't get as much cooling as the other lines?

Are you using a fan to circulate the air, to reduce temp differentials?



Just to clarify for everyone, that is not naughty.

It still gives problems when I swap to the longer ~18' line. And that's with the flow control restricted to a trickle. The stout pours quick and less foam, the red very slow, and still more foam, with what seems like the flow control more than compensating for the extra few feet of line.

See above about hose location.

There is a fan by the coil in the unit that's always on. looking from the top, it's arranged like so:

 

[ba-brewer]

When you give higher pressure for a few days it is possible to overshoot your anticipated volume, better to use the set and forget approach. Or shake with serving pressure so you don't over do it. Bleeding off pressure and allowing the head space to equalize sort of works but can take quite awhile. Agitating the beer helps to shake it loose or pumping CO2 down the bev out while relieving pressure works better but if you have an aromatic beer you will loose some aroma.

Have you tried lowering the pressure even lower to see if there is a pressure that does not create foam?

 

[tennesseean_87]

When you give higher pressure for a few days it is possible to overshoot your anticipated volume, better to use the set and forget approach. Or shake with serving pressure so you don't over do it. Bleeding off pressure and allowing the head space to equalize sort of works but can take quite awhile. Agitating the beer helps to shake it loose or pumping CO2 down the bev out while relieving pressure works better but if you have an aromatic beer you will loose some aroma.

Have you tried lowering the pressure even lower to see if there is a pressure that does not create foam?

It’s not over carbed. I shut the gas off completely and forgot for a few pours and it wouldn’t even pour. As soon as I turned it back on, it was foaming. I don’t want it lower carbonation than it is. It was at 8 and I lowered it to get it to pour better, but no dice.

 

[S-Met]

I have ruled out an issue with the line and the faucet by pouring the stout through the red faucet and pouring the red through the stout faucet. The issue is with the beer or the keg. Stout pours fine through the red tap/line and red pours crummily through the stout tap/line.

The issue began with my last beer, an IPA with keg hops. I assumed the issue was the keg hops, removed them after a few weeks, and finished off the keg. It was pretty foamy. After I kicked the keg, I brewed the red, and put it in my spare keg, not the one the IPA had been in. It poured well as it was finishing carbonating, but after about two weeks on gas got unreasonably foamy (IPA did similar--fine at first, then foamy).

2 questions:
1 - have you tried running through the Belgian line?
2 - have you tried increasing the pressure? Too low of pressure may cause foamy pours depending on the balance of the system.

 

[tennesseean_87]

2 questions:
1 - have you tried running through the Belgian line?
2 - have you tried increasing the pressure? Too low of pressure may cause foamy pours depending on the balance of the system.

1 No. Stout is more accessible
2 Since the balance is similar to the stout, why isn't it pouring as foamy if that's the issue? That's what I don't get, and why I've been swapping that line for trials. I've never heard of low pressure causing more foam, but I am new at this. Anyone else ever have this?

 

[Yooper]

Have you taken out the long (out) diptube to see if there is any obstruction? Sounds like there is something in the diptube or in the poppet causing some problem, if everything else is ok.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Have you taken out the long (out) diptube to see if there is any obstruction? Sounds like there is something in the diptube or in the poppet causing some problem, if everything else is ok.

I think so, but I will give it another look when I get some time.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Update: Swapped post and dip tube with a tube cut a few mm shorter and cut polished. No dice.

Then I moved across town. Beer got warm and this keg got a bit flat (I think CO2 poppet was leaky, but new universals have arrived). I also placed this beer toward the back right and moved the Belgian toward the door in the front. I decreased the temp by .2 or .3 *C and backed off the pressure a little to compensate. I neatened up how the lines were running a bit, too. It's pouring excellently now, but I'm not sure it's fully carbed.

A guess: Maybe the temp measurement I did before wasn't accurate, and the front position was making it warmer, and thus foamier. I'll pull a bit of the Belgian some time and see if it pours poorly now (pun intended). If it does, I'm guessing the front is getting warmer and maybe another circulation fan inside would help.