Old school hops in neipa

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Steveruch

Steveruch

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Any reason a neipa can't be hopped with centennial and cascade, or simcoe and ahtanum? Chinook?
 
Nope. It won't be the "standard" profile, but if that's the flavor you want it'll be fine.

I can't recall where, but I distinctly remember trying a neipa that had Chinook in it and greatly enjoying it.
 
If either of you do this, please report back on how it goes!
I really like the style, but lost it the brews easily available to me just go for identical hop profiles on every one. Buttloads of citra with just a sprinkle of something else to make it different.

I get that citra has the right compounds for biotransformation in bulk. Just kind of interested in trying something different.
 
Coffeeturnal said:
If either of you do this, please report back on how it goes!
I really like the style, but lost it the brews easily available to me just go for identical hop profiles on every one. Buttloads of citra with just a sprinkle of something else to make it different.

I get that citra has the right compounds for biotransformation in bulk. Just kind of interested in trying something different.
Click to expand...
Is there a list of old-school hops that would be appropriate for a brewer in the 60's-70's trying to create a niepa-esque beer? I know cluster is catty, are there other appropriate hops from the era to round uot a hopping schedule? I love this concept and I believe it could have legs commercially.
 
Steveruch said:
Any reason a neipa can't be hopped with centennial and cascade, or simcoe and ahtanum? Chinook?
Click to expand...

Our definitions of "old school" do not coincide. While those hops are not new IMO they do not qualify as old school. To answer your direct question, sure, why not?
 
Jayjay1976 said:
Is there a list of old-school hops that would be appropriate for a brewer in the 60's-70's trying to create a niepa-esque beer? I know cluster is catty, are there other appropriate hops from the era to round uot a hopping schedule? I love this concept and I believe it could have legs commercially.
Click to expand...
No idea... I'm still kind of new to brewing, just over a year.

If you find something like that, please post it though :)
 
Maybe a combo of saaz and Tettnang. Do Mt Hoods qualify for old school? They at least have older parents. I recently did a rye pale w a buttload of hoods. It was a great beer.

I’d be interested in hearing about a neipa w old school hops!
 
Very common to layer C hops in kettle and WP and save the fancy stuff for dry hops.

Centennial and chinook supposed to be good candidates for bio transformation if your yeast swings that way.
 
fwiw I do an neipa featuring Chinook, Simcoe and Galaxy and it's luscious. But I've always been a Chinook fan (grew a crap load of it) so there's definitely a bias for a hop lots of folks think is on the harsh side.

Come to think of it, lots of folks think Galaxy is harsh, too. I guess I like harsh :D

[edit] I also tried doing an neipa with Centennial, Cascade and Amarillo using the same grist mix and same hop timing and it just didn't have the "juiciness" for the style...

Cheers!
 
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Most Trillium beers are just Columbus on the hotside

Sap from Treehouse is mostly Chinook plus a little Simcoe

Had the recent Golden Nugget from Toppling Goliath? (The stuff they make not the older stuff made in Florida) That’s just Golden Promise and Nugget and it’s pretty damn good.

Galena is really fruity

As is Bravo

Might be able to find some good Summit somewhere that’s really orangey and not all garlic/onion.

Tons of options
 
Simcoe, Amarillo and Chinook are old school, an depending hwo and how much of each you use, you can get anythign from grapefruit juice to grapefruit rind/pith, sweet tangerines, peach, tropical vibes out of them together.
 
Pretty sure an all saaz IPA would be gross

However an all NZ saazer/noble beer would be great.

Motueka = Saaz B
Riwaka = Saaz D
or
Wakatu, Wai-iti, Pacifica, Kohatu which are all Hallertau derivatives
 
I made an NE page ale mid 2018 with cascade and triple perle. These two hops work really well together and the cascade came through nicely without too much of the grassy character that lingers in the back on that hop.

Keep in mind when experimenting with older hops they have generally less oil content so you will need to use more to accomplish the same degree of hop flavor.
 
I have limited experience with Saaz, but I did used it once for dry hopping, and it wasn't even that much. That was unpleasent, extremely so I might add.

Motueka is nice, I've used it a few times, so is Riwaka. Wakatu is lemony/lime, not very impactful, but OK. Pacifica and Kohatu are two hops I've just used today in a Pilsner, which I will be dry hopping with Pacifica and Topaz.
 
A guy in my brew club brought a "German" hazy to the last meeting, made with German hops and yeast. I thought it was quite nice. Didn't specify exactly which hops and yeast, though.
 
Coffeeturnal said:
Nope. It won't be the "standard" profile, but if that's the flavor you want it'll be fine.
Click to expand...
it's partly the flavor I want, but mostly the cost as I have centennial, cascade, ahtanum, and Chinook on hand. Also styrian goldings and some summit. And palisades, hersbrucker, and wai-iti.
 
I'm going to keg a NEIPA I brewing 2 weeks ago using 6 ounces of Centennial and 4 ounces of Azacca
 
I regularly brew a version of my NEIPA and use combo's of Centennial/Cascade/Simcoe/Amarillo....... those hops are quite good in a NEIPA. Columbus can work well, but in small amounts as it can be very dominating. Personally, I have not love chinook in a NEIPA.... to assertive and sharp in my opinion.
 
I had the same experience with Chinook, it gives a sharp grapefruityness... the biotransformation supposedly should transform it into peach and I was testing this out since I had Equilibrium's Da Mystery of Chinook which was really nice and soft...
I tried columbus, centennial, cascade, simcoe... they all can work but they come in no way close to what you can achieve with the popular ones...
I think they can work wel as a supportive role but you really want one of the juice king hops to make the beer great.. I'm hoping i'm wrong cause i'm getting a bit bored of the same flavors in NEIPA's....
 
Jayjay1976 said:
Is there a list of old-school hops that would be appropriate for a brewer in the 60's-70's trying to create a niepa-esque beer? I know cluster is catty, are there other appropriate hops from the era to round uot a hopping schedule? I love this concept and I believe it could have legs commercially.
Click to expand...

I hate this concept, even as late as the mid-1970s the US was close to a Cluster monoculture and breeding was all for alpha. That started to change with Cascade - launched in 1971 but first made into a commercial beer in 1976, otherwise you're just looking at Nugget, Galena, Willamette and a few minor ones like Eroica and Horizon - even then I'd have to double-check the dates.

That's not to say you couldn't do something using these hops with NEIPA-type techniques, but the result won't be a NEIPA. The trouble is that the old-school hops tend to be one-dimensional, so you need to blend hops and take advantage of biotransformation in order to get an interesting flavour. So Nugget has lots of linalool, more usefully Bravo has lots of geraniol, but neither makes a particularly interesting beer on its own. Chinook seems a good target for biotransformation but you need all the thiols you can get, so blackcurranty hops like Bramling Cross, Bullion etc will help. Have a good rummage among the less fashionable hop varieties, there's plenty of good biochemistry there even if you won't find all that you want in a single variety. You're looking at a blend of certainly 3-4 hops, possibly 5-6 or more, to get an acceptable level of complexity.

Since the big 3 (Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy) all cost about the same here, rather than limit by date, one of my todo list is a "threequarters" NEIPA - 3/4 of the usual ABV (so 4-4.5%ish) and using hops that are no more than 75% of the price of CMG. Which pretty much knocks out all the fancy US proprietary hops, you're looking at nothing that costs much more than eg Chinook. I've a few ideas to test first, but I invite others here to see what they can do under that constraint - I'm not sure how it translates to the US, but see how "no more expensive than Chinook" works.

Yeast are a big part of making this work - they have to contribute in the form of esters and hop biotransformation. In the same way that only some yeast can convert chemicals in the grist to produce the 4-VG ("clove") typical of a hefe, only some yeast can convert chemicals in the hops into more interesting flavours. So forget Chico, Conan doesn't seem very good at biotransformation (although the peach thing is helpful), whereas the likes of 1318 and T-58 seem more useful here. There's some logic behind these new three-way NEIPA blends which have Sacc Trois and Conan for yeast flavours and 1318 for biotransformation and flavour, I'd probably roll my own blend based around 1318, which might feature eg a pinch of T-58 and possibly a late addition of Hornindal among other things.

PS Simcoe and Amarillo old-school? They're still under (20-year) patent! I'd certainly regard those post-2000 releases as a different generation to the likes of even Centennial (released in 1990).
 
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Just put mine in the keg, tasted great flat
20190121_115928.jpeg
 
Northern_Brewer said:
I hate this concept, even as late as the mid-1970s the US was close to a Cluster monoculture and breeding was all for alpha. That started to change with Cascade - launched in 1971 but first made into a commercial beer in 1976, otherwise you're just looking at Nugget, Galena, Willamette and a few minor ones like Eroica and Horizon - even then I'd have to double-check the dates.

That's not to say you couldn't do something using these hops with NEIPA-type techniques, but the result won't be a NEIPA. The trouble is that the old-school hops tend to be one-dimensional, so you need to blend hops and take advantage of biotransformation in order to get an interesting flavour. So Nugget has lots of linalool, more usefully Bravo has lots of geraniol, but neither makes a particularly interesting beer on its own. Chinook seems a good target for biotransformation but you need all the thiols you can get, so blackcurranty hops like Bramling Cross, Bullion etc will help. Have a good rummage among the less fashionable hop varieties, there's plenty of good biochemistry there even if you won't find all that you want in a single variety. You're looking at a blend of certainly 3-4 hops, possibly 5-6 or more, to get an acceptable level of complexity.

Since the big 3 (Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy) all cost about the same here, rather than limit by date, one of my todo list is a "threequarters" NEIPA - 3/4 of the usual ABV (so 4-4.5%ish) and using hops that are no more than 75% of the price of CMG. Which pretty much knocks out all the fancy US proprietary hops, you're looking at nothing that costs much more than eg Chinook. I've a few ideas to test first, but I invite others here to see what they can do under that constraint - I'm not sure how it translates to the US, but see how "no more expensive than Chinook" works.

Yeast are a big part of making this work - they have to contribute in the form of esters and hop biotransformation. In the same way that only some yeast can convert chemicals in the grist to produce the 4-VG ("clove") typical of a hefe, only some yeast can convert chemicals in the hops into more interesting flavours. So forget Chico, Conan doesn't seem very good at biotransformation (although the peach thing is helpful), whereas the likes of 1318 and T-58 seem more useful here. There's some logic behind these new three-way NEIPA blends which have Sacc Trois and Conan for yeast flavours and 1318 for biotransformation and flavour, I'd probably roll my own blend based around 1318, which might feature eg a pinch of T-58 and possibly a late addition of Hornindal among other things.

PS Simcoe and Amarillo old-school? They're still under (20-year) patent! I'd certainly regard those post-2000 releases as a different generation to the likes of even Centennial (released in 1990).
Click to expand...

What about WB-06 for biotransformatiom with T-58?
 
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My limited experience is that with Chinook at least, WB-06 is a wrecking ball - it smashes everything up so you get a complex mix but overall hop intensity is so reduced that you don't really get to appreciate it (at least in the 6g/l kind of range I was using). T-58 is Goldilocks - some biotransformation but not too much that it destroys the hop flavour.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
My limited experience is that with Chinook at least, WB-06 is a wrecking ball - it smashes everything up so you get a complex mix but overall hop intensity is so reduced that you don't really get to appreciate it (at least in the 6g/l kind of range I was using). T-58 is Goldilocks - some biotransformation but not too much that it destroys the hop flavour.
Click to expand...

Thanks for answering!, my limited experience with WB-06 is using it with T-54 and S04 as suggested in the Tree House yeast blend, not sure what WB-06 contributes in this blend. But 1318 and T-58 sounds like a good idea.
 

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