Mash In A Bucket system

[Skidsmint]

Such a great build Skidsmint and an interesting thread. Easily the most intriguing electric setup I've seen (in terms of me actually considering building one). Scotty2 - keep us updated with your build. I'd like to see how yours pans out using the different heating element. Thanks fellas.

Thank you, it's definitely been a work in progress over the past year but its been fun and I've learned a lot about brewing in that time. I hope that other fellow brewers can take what I have done and improve upon the idea with their own, just like Scotty2.

 

[Skidsmint]

Great project and great build! Thanks for sharing the details!

I could see doing something like this with a MiniMash MLT:
http://www.homebrewing.org/MiniMash-Lauter-Tun-15-Gallons_p_2669.html

Is the basket really necessary? Wouldn't a decent false bottom suffice?

This reminds me of JKarp's Brutus 20 but with a RIMS heater and in a very tidy setup. Is there any concern with low utilization/enzymatic action due to dilution since you're putting in so much water (>>1.25qts/lb)? I'm guessing not since your Hefe hit 85%(!!!!)?

I tried the false bottom at first but I just couldn't get it to work like I wanted it to, so I had the basket built. As of right now I don't have any concern because so far I've done 3 batches and the lowest efficiency I've had was a 79% Irish Blonde Ale.

 

[Weezy]

I tried the false bottom at first but I just couldn't get it to work like I wanted it to, so I had the basket built.

I hear ya. I personally use a false bottom and a paint strainer bag....convenience and never a stuck sparge [again, anyway].

 

[Skidsmint]

I hear ya. I personally use a false bottom and a paint strainer bag....convenience and never a stuck sparge [again, anyway].

You just gave me an idea! You could drill a bunch of 1/2 holes throughout a 5 gallon bucket and use a paint strainer bag inside for the filter. That would probably work as well as my stainless basket and be a lot cheaper.

 

[Weezy]

what's the purpose of the bucket? Just for helping with lifting out grain or do you want void space between bucket (or your filter basket) and the inside wall of the cooler? I guess i'm asking...why not just the filter bag and no bucket? Do you need space to enhance wort flow/pumping?

 

[Skidsmint]

what's the purpose of the bucket? Just for helping with lifting out grain or do you want void space between bucket (or your filter basket) and the inside wall of the cooler? I guess i'm asking...why not just the filter bag and no bucket? Do you need space to enhance wort flow/pumping?

The space between the bucket and cooler allows the wort to flow freely. If there was no bucket and just a bag, the wort wouldn't flow very well.

 

[Weezy]

Your pumping right into the middle of the grain bed and letting it filter out in all directions, correct? That would go well with your bucket/basket concept. If you were just pumping onto the top of your grain bed, I'd be afraid of the wort just flowing around the glob of grain and not extract much.

 

[Skidsmint]

Your pumping right into the middle of the grain bed and letting it filter out in all directions, correct? That would go well with your bucket/basket concept. If you were just pumping onto the top of your grain bed, I'd be afraid of the wort just flowing around the glob of grain and not extract much.

Correct, I drilled holes in the center tube and capped the bottom of the tube. The wort pumps in all directions agitating the wort.

 

[Dolomieu]

I'm thinking about this element for this build:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0060HN70M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Anyone know if the amps matter with these systems? I want to make sure i don't over extend the controller which says 10amps for long cook times.

I'm gonig to use the rims tube kit from stainless brewing, add camlocks, and am thinking of using copper for my return tube. I'll make two: one for my 5 gal cooler, one for my keggles (the lid fits both)

 

[Skidsmint]

I'm thinking about this element for this build:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0060HN70M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Anyone know if the amps matter with these systems? I want to make sure i don't over extend the controller which says 10amps for long cook times.

I'm gonig to use the rims tube kit from stainless brewing, add camlocks, and am thinking of using copper for my return tube. I'll make two: one for my 5 gal cooler, one for my keggles (the lid fits both)

What's the diameter of the rims tube kit? You will want to be sure that it's large enough for the heater element to fit inside without it touching the sides of the tube. Other than that I think that would work fine.

 

[Dolomieu]

What's the diameter of the rims tube kit? You will want to be sure that it's large enough for the heater element to fit inside without it touching the sides of the tube. Other than that I think that would work fine.

The kit comes with 1.5 inch tubing. Not sure the length of the element though. The kit comes with a 6 in thread pipe plus the t's so i think its long enough.

 

[Weezy]

Anyone know if the amps matter with these systems? I want to make sure i don't over extend the controller which says 10amps for long cook times.

I don't know what heating element Skidsmint is using but if the machine's output is rated at 10 amps, you shouldn't buy an element over 1200 watts.

1200 WATTS = 10 AMPS x 120 VOLTS​

 

[Dolomieu]

I don't know what heating element Skidsmint is using but if the machine's output is rated at 10 amps, you shouldn't buy an element over 1200 watts.

1200 WATTS = 10 AMPS x 120 VOLTS​

Thank you

 

[Dolomieu]

I don't know what heating element Skidsmint is using but if the machine's output is rated at 10 amps, you shouldn't buy an element over 1200 watts.

1200 WATTS = 10 AMPS x 120 VOLTS​

Ok weezy but that combo is hard to find. Also won't 1200w just be the out put of the element? Meaning I can use a 1500w 120vac element but it will only put out 1200w since its being pushed by 120vac at 10 amps

 

[Carlscan26]

Ok weezy but that combo is hard to find. Also won't 1200w just be the out put of the element? Meaning I can use a 1500w 120vac element but it will only put out 1200w since its being pushed by 120vac at 10 amps

The unit's 10 amp rating is what the unit is capable of providing. The element is going to draw 12 amps. At best this will trip a fuse in the unit but quite possibly could result in damage to the unit too.

 

[Dolomieu]

The unit's 10 amp rating is what the unit is capable of providing. The element is going to draw 12 amps. At best this will trip a fuse in the unit but quite possibly could result in damage to the unit too.

Thank you. Im reading the electrical primer now so i dont do anything stupid.

It appears though that the elements talked about earlier in the thread and not good for this set up. 1500 w element drawing to many amps. So there is this one:

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-8594-dol-fyn-heating-element-120v-1200w.aspx

Which will give you the max with the controller in the original build. The other two options are to grab a 1000w 120v heater or a 4500w 240v heater. The 4500w heater will put out 1125w when it's wired for 120v (4500w/4). So it draws 9.375 amps(=1125w/120v).

So I believe, unless someone points out a mistake, i'm going with one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BQKVFM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Weezy]

That looks like a nice choice as long as it fits ok in the tube. They don't exactly give you dimensions on these things, nor close up pictures of the end connections either.

 

[scotty2]

My bucket arrived yesterday. My lid seems to be quite a bit smaller in circumference than the bucket. I'm assuming it's ok, I'm a little ignorant in this regard.

 

[srmarcondes]

I got something similar, but my efficiency has been quite poor, in the 50's... how do you sparge out of there?

 

[srmarcondes]

just realized you had answered my question before...soory for that...

i will try batch sparging tomorrow and i will let it recirculate another 30 min or so with the sparge water.. hopefully efficiency will come up...

 

[scotty2]

I got something similar, but my efficiency has been quite poor, in the 50's... how do you sparge out of there?

Still no definitive answer on the sparging. What I'm going to try is, after mashing with the prescribed amount of water for whatever mash schedule, I will add the rest of the preboil volume and recirculate that for a yet to be determined amount of time. If anyone has other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Dolomieu]

Still no definitive answer on the sparging. What I'm going to try is, after mashing with the prescribed amount of water for whatever mash schedule, I will add the rest of the preboil volume and recirculate that for a yet to be determined amount of time. If anyone has other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

I think i would batch sparge as normal. Add water maybe run it for a couple minutes. Let it sit for 15 minutes then run off you 2nd runnings. Use your press on the grain then if you want. Ive never needed anything like that though. I can see it being useful if you were doing no sparge.

 

[Epimetheus]

Excellent design.

• The basket is much more convenient than a bag, both perform the same function.
• The element in a separate tube is very clever. It could be used on a BIAB metal pot without punching more holes in the pot. It can be used to assist electric range top brewing.
• The SS pipe could be arranged several ways, not necessarily on the electrical box
• And I am just envious of the temperature control, which I have difficulties achieving with BIAB

 

[scotty2]

I think i would batch sparge as normal. Add water maybe run it fun a couple minutes. Let it sit for 15 minutes then run off you 2nd runnings. Use your press on the grain then if you want. Ive never needed anything like that though. I can see it being useful if you were doing no sparge.

Couldn't you just add entire volume of preboil volume and skip sparge altogether? I know it would be a loose mash, but, I don't see how efficiency would be compromised with this system.

 

[Dolomieu]

Couldn't you just add entire volume of preboil volume and skip sparge altogether? I know it would be a loose mash, but, I don't see how efficiency would be compromised with this system.

Yeah. That's no sparge.

 

[scotty2]

Yeah. That's no sparge.

I assumed, pardon me, I'm green

 

[Dolomieu]

I assumed, pardon me, I'm green

Seems like you're doing just fine.

 

[Weezy]

The high water to grain ratio is what concerned me also. The step mashing I guess is helping to offset low extraction issues due to thin wort. I don't know. I could see mashing with a minimum amount of water (enough to fully cover grain), then sparge by adding water or draining and replacing with new sparge water. BUT these ideas certainly hinder the primary benefit of this system...automation...set it and forget it. That is what sparked my initial interest in this. I had been working on an idea myself to similar effect but this is a simpler solution. I think I'd have to run a few batches using full volume no sparge and see how my own efficiency came out, because the automation is the beauty of this.

 

[NathPowe]

Been following this thread with much interest. I believe somewhere back at the beginning Skidsmint mentions not sparging on his system (so I assume a single infusion) and getting good efficiency. Which is awesome. My question regarding this is, if you're doing one infusion with all the water you'll need, won't you run out of room pretty quick in a 10-gallon tun?

Even just figuring a regular sized beer of say 12-13lbs, I'd be looking at a single infusion of 9 gallons to get a proper pre-boil accounting for grain absorption. That fills a 10-gallon tun to the very tippy top. Perhaps I'm missing something though.

Anyone care to chime in? Either way, really enjoying the discussion - could see myself going this route someday. I'll go out on a limb here and say that a step by step writeup of a brew day with a system like this would be a pretty interesting read. Anyway, happy Saturday.

 

[Weezy]

... I'll go out on a limb here and say that a step by step writeup of a brew day with a system like this would be a pretty interesting read. Anyway, happy Saturday.

really good point. We've been working on assumptions...it'd be really nice to hear a step by step brew day! Thanks in advance!

 

[srmarcondes]

ok,

- I got a video of my system here: sorry for the Portuguese...


my 2 cents here:

- in my (limited) experience, you want to mash relatively thin here. You are pumping the water and if it's too thick, it may get stuck. In the past I was starting to have some issues with 12 lbs and 4 gal. So I went for 12 lbs I use 5 gal for the mesh.

- here is how I meshed:
1) 11 lbs Castle Pilsen Malt + 1 lbs Castle Carapils ground at .05"
2) 5 gal at 113F recirculating slowly, with valves barely opened
3) dough in at 113F and kept it there for 15 min
4) added another pound of unmalted wheat that I had boiling vigorously on another pot with another say 3 quarts.
5) raised temperature to 144F and let it recirculate for 1 hour
6) drained completely (about 12 quarts or so)
7) added another 10 quarts at 158F, stirred thoroughly and let it recirculate another 15 min until the grain bed was nice again and the wort was clear
8) drained another 10 quarts or so and off to the boil
---------------------

some statistics, which is where I'm confused here:
1st runnings were at 13.1 Brix
2nd runnings were at 8 Brix
pre boil was 11 Brix
OG was 12 Brix.
------------------------

This su*c&s if the math is right, I got 1.043 pre boil and OG 1.047 and beersmith tells me it's 52% efficiency.... what am I doing wrong?


cheers!

 

[Skidsmint]

The high water to grain ratio is what concerned me also. The step mashing I guess is helping to offset low extraction issues due to thin wort. I don't know. I could see mashing with a minimum amount of water (enough to fully cover grain), then sparge by adding water or draining and replacing with new sparge water. BUT these ideas certainly hinder the primary benefit of this system...automation...set it and forget it. That is what sparked my initial interest in this. I had been working on an idea myself to similar effect but this is a simpler solution. I think I'd have to run a few batches using full volume no sparge and see how my own efficiency came out, because the automation is the beauty of this.

I think what really helps out my efficiency is having the agitator tube in the middle of the mash. The grains are constantly moving which helps in the extraction of more starches to be converted to sugars.

 

[Skidsmint]

Been following this thread with much interest. I believe somewhere back at the beginning Skidsmint mentions not sparging on his system (so I assume a single infusion) and getting good efficiency. Which is awesome. My question regarding this is, if you're doing one infusion with all the water you'll need, won't you run out of room pretty quick in a 10-gallon tun?

Even just figuring a regular sized beer of say 12-13lbs, I'd be looking at a single infusion of 9 gallons to get a proper pre-boil accounting for grain absorption. That fills a 10-gallon tun to the very tippy top. Perhaps I'm missing something though.

Anyone care to chime in? Either way, really enjoying the discussion - could see myself going this route someday. I'll go out on a limb here and say that a step by step writeup of a brew day with a system like this would be a pretty interesting read. Anyway, happy Saturday.

I use the BIABcalc app for my iPhone which calculates how much water to add based on volume of the tun and amount of grain bill. There's usually a couple inches of head space left in the tun and so far everything went great with the 3 batches that I have done.

I'll be doing another batch within the next few weeks so I can do a step by step write up for you guys. Since this is more or less a hybrid system, I learn something different about it each time and I might change something up next time to help improve the way it works.

 

[Hawkeye11]

Working on building a modified version of this system. My plan is to also hook up to a HLT so I can fly Sparge.


One question on the build, what did you use for the temperature probe port, a drilled stopper?

 

[Weezy]

I'm waiting to hear Skid's brewday report too.

My biggest concern with this method would be over working the grain and end up extracting a lot of tannins. Otherwise, it is automation on the cheap and easy.

 

[scotty2]

I'm going to try and fire mine up tomorrow for the first time. Let you know how it goes.

 

[Skidsmint]

Working on building a modified version of this system. My plan is to also hook up to a HLT so I can fly Sparge.


One question on the build, what did you use for the temperature probe port, a drilled stopper?

I did drill a stopper so the temp probe can be placed into the thermowell. The stopper works great because you can slightly screw the stopper into the threads of the thermowell and create a nice seal.

 

[Skidsmint]

I'm waiting to hear Skid's brewday report too.

My biggest concern with this method would be over working the grain and end up extracting a lot of tannins. Otherwise, it is automation on the cheap and easy.

Unfortunately I haven't had much time to brew lately but hopefully I will soon. I've never had any issues with tannins thus far in my past 3 brews. The way that I understand it is that ph and temps are what contributes to tannin extraction. As long as your ph is under 6 and temps are under 170 then there really shouldn't be any issues with tannins.

 

[scotty2]

Up and running, no brewing done today, but, it is circulating water and the heating element and PID are working accurately. A few leaks early on, but, now running perfectly.

 

[Weezy]

Unfortunately I haven't had much time to brew lately but hopefully I will soon. I've never had any issues with tannins thus far in my past 3 brews. The way that I understand it is that ph and temps are what contributes to tannin extraction. As long as your ph is under 6 and temps are under 170 then there really shouldn't be any issues with tannins.

hey! That's what I said! (haha)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/full-volume-mash-vs-1-25-qt-408061/#post5167343

I agree and you're probably right, but I can still worry about husk bits and such making it into the bk.


like that temp prove setup, Scotty!