Dry your own yeast?

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COLObrewer said:
Thanx for the link to MJ, I especially like this quote: . . . . . .The sisters were there. "Home-brew and sheep's head!" one of them exclaimed to me. "Without the home brew, you may as well leave the head on the sheep."

True enough I would suspect:mug:
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I've been contemplating putting that quote on my sigline all morning....I guess great minds think alike.
 
Passedpawn might revisit this idea. It's been in the back of my mind for quite a while. I think the trick is to pull a serious vacuum in order to quickly dry the yeast. The best I can do for a vacuum is my foodsaver :mad:

I've got some other very cool gadgets I'm slowly working on, much much cooler than the dried yeast thing. Much more useful for the casual brewer, too. I'll probably do some casual experiments with drying the yeast when I get stains for viability, but nothing too serious until the other gadgets are finished / abandoned.
 
I read somewhere that someone was using plotting paper and putting a drop or two of slurry on the paper and then allowed it to dry. I will try to search more details on this as I don't know how sanitation was maintained.

Clem
 
Rise from the grave my lovely thread, rise!

I've thought of doing this for a little while, and had a couple ideas I thought I would share.

Drying with air...why? You don't necessarily need to air dry at all. I'm thinking that you could run the yeast sludge through something like a coffee filter. Then put the paper filter on a couple of inches of sugar in a closed container. Sugar likes water. It should pull the water out of the yeast right through the filter.

I don't think that you would have a real issue with bacteria from the sugar water. That small of an amount of water should stick to the sugar so firmly that I doubt anything would have much luck breaking it loose to use, at least at room temperature. You could also do that with salt, but I would be afraid the salt solution that would be formed on the filter would kill the yeast. Free chlorine being unhealthy for yeast.

Another thought I had was that it is likely forming the yeast into pellets of some kind is important. I seem to remember reading that dried yeast was an outer coating of dead yeast around an inner core of live yeast. I was thinking that pressing the yeast through a piece of metal window screen would be likely to get reasonably close to the right size. Though, it might be necessary to add some kind of binder to the yeast "butter".

If I was going to do that, I would probably do that before placing the yeast over the sugar bed. That way the water in the mix can help keep it together.

This is all just spit-balling, but I thought it was worth posting.
 
passedpawn said:
Passedpawn might revisit this idea. It's been in the back of my mind for quite a while. I think the trick is to pull a serious vacuum in order to quickly dry the yeast. The best I can do for a vacuum is my foodsaver :mad:

I've got some other very cool gadgets I'm slowly working on, much much cooler than the dried yeast thing. Much more useful for the casual brewer, too. I'll probably do some casual experiments with drying the yeast when I get stains for viability, but nothing too serious until the other gadgets are finished / abandoned.
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I seem to remember seeing a patent drawing and text of a commercial yeast drying drum, it was sort of a clothes dryer in reverse. The perforated drum (ends sealed) slowly turned, partially submerged in a vat of yeast slurry while a vaccuum was pulled from inside the drum, the "caked" on yeast was scraped from the outer walls and fell onto a conveyor of some sort and carted off to the next drying phase. That would have to have some smaaaaaall perforations, maybe it was lined with fabric of some sort?
 
COLObrewer said:
I would be utilizing this for long term storage of local "mother" yeasts.:mug:
Come on Denny, you are obviously interested since you've been reading this thread and posting comments on it for years, heheh
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I look at this thread with the same curiosity and horror that I look at a car wreck.

Really, I think it's great that people want to think outside the box on some things, but that needs to be tempered with a dose of reality and knowledge.
 
There seems to be a lot of knowledge in this thread, and plenty of ideas as well as information about how these things are successfully done. Maybe not a full description with all the details, but it's not like it's a bunch of people shouting out nonsense. Everyone involved seems to be aware that it's a challenging task, and that it may not work easily or at all.

So, I think we get it. You don't think it can work. You might be right, but I don't think you need to keep reiterating that!

To me, I don't quite see the need for doing it, but it seems like an interesting project for its own sake. I think the fact that it *can* be done on the commercial scale is a good sign. You're not in uncharted territory, given enough investment and effort you are essentially guaranteed success. The question then is can you find a clever way to do it with a lot less investment and effort than $millions worth of equipment. Good luck.
 
Since this thread came out I was doing some research into sourdough starters a few months back to make some bread, and found out that folks who are into it dry and share these cultures all the time. In fact there's a pretty famous free starter that's been passed around from an 1847 strain called Carl Griffith's 1847 Sourdough Starter. It's still being passed on years after carl's death by friends who grow it, dry it and send it out for an SASE. You can get it here.

The thing that surprised be when I got it is.....That it is dry...

This is what it looks like when it arrives.

1847-granules.jpg


One the website it says this about the Dried Starter.

It is cultured, dried, and mailed under sanitary, but not sterile, conditions by a volunteer who adheres to the methods used and recorded by Carl Griffith. It is not certified as a foodstuff. If you are allergic or reactive to any of its components, we guarantee that you will be allergic or reactive to it. We also guarantee that we make our best efforts so that you will receive a healthy, vigorous dried sourdough start which will easily revive to authentic Carl Griffith's 1847 Oregon Trail Sourdough Starter.
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This is how Carl said he used to dry his starter. I swear last year when I was reading about this starter I came upon info about how his replacements were drying it differently and in a way that was more "sanitary" if I find it I'll post it.


But I guess drying sourdough yeast is quite common.....
This is a link to drying sourdough starters.

Another link on it.

It may not work for a "clean" yeast culture BUT I'm wondering if folks doing wild brews could utilize these methods for their wild strains? At least it would be cool to trade different wild yeast strains back and forth for brewers.

And if there's NOT a way to make it more sterile/sanitary...and maybe there is a way it can be done. I was surprised it was so common amongst bread folk.
 
Revvy said:
Since this thread came out I was doing some research into sourdough starters a few months back to make some bread, and found out that folks who are into it dry and share these cultures all the time. In fact there's a pretty famous free starter that's been passed around from an 1847 strain called Carl Griffith's 1847 Sourdough Starter. It's still being passed on years after carl's death by friends who grow it, dry it and send it out for an SASE. You can get it here.

The thing that surprised be when I got it is.....That it is dry...

This is what it looks like when it arrives.

1847-granules.jpg


One the website it says this about the Dried Starter.



This is how Carl said he used to dry his starter. I swear last year when I was reading about this starter I came upon info about how his replacements were drying it differently and in a way that was more "sanitary" if I find it I'll post it.


But I guess drying sourdough yeast is quite common.....
This is a link to drying sourdough starters.

Another link on it.

It may not work for a "clean" yeast culture BUT I'm wondering if folks doing wild brews could utilize these methods for their wild strains?

And if there's NOT a way to make it more sterile/sanitary...and maybe there is a way it can be done. I was surprised it was so common amongst bread folk.
Click to expand...

Awesome, I'm getn some. I tried to make a sourdough starter from the dregs of my Oude Bruin met Perzik but it didn't get sour which was very surprising to me, anyway that is off topic.

I am determined to try a version of this drying method the next time I re-start my juniper yeast mother, I'll let you all know how that goes. Maybe I'll take a picture or three.:mug:
 
COLObrewer said:
Awesome, I'm getn some. I tried to make a sourdough starter from the dregs of my Oude Bruin met Perzik but it didn't get sour which was very surprising to me, anyway that is off topic.

I am determined to try a version of this drying method the next time I re-start my juniper yeast mother, I'll let you all know how that goes. Maybe I'll take a picture or three.:mug:
Click to expand...

I haven't started it yet. I don't eat much bread, and living alone even the smallest loaf, or package of hamburger/hotdog buns goes bad, and I abhor freezing bread like some folks do.
 
Revvy said:
Since this thread came out I was doing some research into sourdough starters a few months back to make some bread, and found out that folks who are into it dry and share these cultures all the time. In fact there's a pretty famous free starter that's been passed around from an 1847 strain called Carl Griffith's 1847 Sourdough Starter. It's still being passed on years after carl's death by friends who grow it, dry it and send it out for an SASE. You can get it here.

The thing that surprised be when I got it is.....That it is dry...

This is what it looks like when it arrives.

1847-granules.jpg


One the website it says this about the Dried Starter.



This is how Carl said he used to dry his starter. I swear last year when I was reading about this starter I came upon info about how his replacements were drying it differently and in a way that was more "sanitary" if I find it I'll post it.


But I guess drying sourdough yeast is quite common.....
This is a link to drying sourdough starters.

Another link on it.

It may not work for a "clean" yeast culture BUT I'm wondering if folks doing wild brews could utilize these methods for their wild strains? At least it would be cool to trade different wild yeast strains back and forth for brewers.

And if there's NOT a way to make it more sterile/sanitary...and maybe there is a way it can be done. I was surprised it was so common amongst bread folk.
Click to expand...
Hmm, the methodology here is very simple. As mentioned, there is no way this is a sterile process. However, if the degree of contamination can be kept down this might work. Basically, the gluten in the flour is being used as a binder to form the flakes. The yeast is just being air dried in a thin sheet.

I've got a couple of bottles of harvested yeast in the back of my fridge. I may revive one and give this a shot. I bought both yeast strains dried, so I think they will be able to handle the rigors of the drying process.
 
Ok, so as I see this there are 3 sanitary challenges with the process.
a. The water. We all have brewed, duh boil it.
b. The flour in the mix. Pretty much the same as one. Mix it in with the water and boil them together.
c. The air used to dry the mix out. I need to do some more research on this, but I'm thinking an air intake tube with a high intensity UV lamp in it might actually solve that problem.

What made me think of it, is that during the anthrax scare government offices started hitting there mail with intense UV before anybody opened it. The idea being that enough of the virus's in the powdered anthrax would be killed so as to make it non-infectious. If you can kill a virus through an envelope and who knows how many other layers of paper, then you should be able to kill virtually everything riding around in the air.

The problem I can see with doing that is that you may heat up the air to much and accidentally cook your yeast. I also don't know how expensive the lamps are, or how much output you would need to sanitize air on a continuous flow basis like that.

I had to get that down before I forgot it. I'll post again when I've done more research.
 
Interesting about the starters. I had a pretty nice wild yeast sourdough starter that I developed and kept running for a year or two. It wasn't anything special, I just mixed up some flour and water and let it sit for a while. Unfortunately, our son turned out to have a wheat allergy, so I've had to give up baking since then (it's not nearly the same making gluten-free breads, so I just let the bread machine do it).

There's a big obvious difference between bread and beer in terms of the impact the yeast has on the final product. In bread, there's a brief period during which a relatively small quantity of yeast produces a bunch of CO2, and that's essentially it. Almost any yeast strain will do the job---the great ones may produce especially good breads, but the bad ones just make ok, not bad, bread. In beer, on the other hand, you have a long process, a lot more yeast, and a lot more sugar being consumed, so it's critical that you have a strain of yeast that produces a palatable mix of chemicals as it ferments. Plus, you have to guard against bacterial infections which I guess must be a bit slower to develop than yeast fermentation.

So I'd say that this history is another encouraging piece of information that there's hope, but it's a big leap from propagating dried bread yeast to doing the same with brewing yeast. In any case, it's interesting. (And now I want to bake bread again....)
 
zeg said:
So I'd say that this history is another encouraging piece of information that there's hope, but it's a big leap from propagating dried bread yeast to doing the same with brewing yeast. In any case, it's interesting. (And now I want to bake bread again....)
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Well, HISTORICALLY I don't think it's that big of a leap, it's actually not much different then the yeast sticks I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. They were making beer with yeast dried on sticks millenia ago in Norway. Here's a mention of it.
 
Revvy said:
Well, HISTORICALLY I don't think it's that big of a leap, it's actually not much different then the yeast sticks I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. They were making beer with yeast dried on sticks millenia ago in Norway. Here's a mention of it.
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Yes, yes, I saw your post and have heard about the sticks before. It's unquestionably possible. Heck, if you ever do any baking in your kitchen, you can probably get beer just by leaving your wort open to the yeast floating around.

I really mean something a bit more sophisticated, here. The brewing stick is a step more sophisticated than just letting wild yeast fall in, and drying a starter is a step further than that. There's still a ways to go to dry a specifically selected, pure strain, though.

:mug:
 
david_42 said:
If you manage to get one of the liquid strains to work, that would be something.
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This is what I don't understand, David says the same thing with a little more background in the thread I started (Before I knew about this one by PassedPawn) here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/can-i-dry-my-captured-yeast-long-term-storage-204433/
Does anyone have any background support on why most liquid yeasts can not be dried? I assumed it was just less cost effective, aren't most yeasts in the world airbourne? Do all the strains we find in liquid yeast live in liquid in the wild? David?:mug:
 
Anything ever come from this? I would have loved to see him come up with something!
 
COLObrewer said:
This is what I don't understand, David says the same thing with a little more background in the thread I started (Before I knew about this one by PassedPawn) here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/can-i-dry-my-captured-yeast-long-term-storage-204433/
Does anyone have any background support on why most liquid yeasts can not be dried? I assumed it was just less cost effective, aren't most yeasts in the world airbourne? Do all the strains we find in liquid yeast live in liquid in the wild? David?:mug:
Click to expand...

Super happy this thread got bumped. So I have been reading Yeast by White and Jamil and most yeast we use are no longer wild. Through years of repitching we have domesticated the yeast for optimal beer instead of optimal survivability. This is why the majority of liquid yeasts are not dried. I am not saying it can't be done, just that it would be extremely difficult.
 
Sorry I haven't had anything solid to contribute. I've been to busy to build the drying chamber, it's still on my list but will likely be a few more months before I'll be able to get to it.
 
An interesting flow chart, and an interesting read. Though I don't see any information there on how the actual drying is accomplished without killing the yeast cells, and/or introducing additional species of wild yeast. As always, the devil is in the details.
 
I wonder if "Silica Gel" packs would work? Silica Gel would eliminate the need to expose the yeast to heat or ventilation.
They would have to be heated to dry them and sterilize them before each use.
How much moisture does a pound of silica gel absorb?

I hope you solve the problem. Good Luck!
 
Necrotime!

Circumstances have brewed the perfect storm. I'm moving cross country and doing extended travel, so my fridged collection of yeast is going into unchilled storage. I'll leave some in mason jars, and I'll attempt to dry some. Nothing to lose!

Drying process was to put some yeast slurry from a starter on aluminum foil and cover with an upside-down glass bowl with a little space at the bottom for gentle airflow. Risk of infections should be minimal.

First batch (WLP090) has finished drying, and I just added it to some starter wort on a stirplate. We'll see shortly if any yeast survived the process.
 
Believe it or not, years ago when my wife and I won a trip to England and dinner with the late, wonderful Mr. Jackson, I committed a bit of industrial subterfuge. Brewery tour from a well-known metropolitan brewery with a very rich brew that starts with the letter ESB, their excess yeasts from skimming on the way to Marmite (a slow and painful death for all concerned - yeast and ourselves), my wife nudged me to scoop some and I used a business card to do so. Back at the hotel I used a plastic knife to smear it across several other cards, and dry under the lamp.

Came back to our shores, plated up and gave it a shot. It was successful and very good, though nothing like the brew from there. Lost it along with all my slants when I gave up brewing.

Am I a bad person?
 
passedpawn said:
I was thinking I'd try to dry my own yeast. Why? Just because.

Anyone try this before?

1) Dehydrator. 2) 5% humidity. 3) Vacuum sealer (or evacuate sealed envelope with CO2).

I have a microscope, so I need to get a hemocytometer and I can count cells and figure viability.
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My first attempt failed, but my second attempt succeeded using a more careful method:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...memade-dried-kveik.666872/page-2#post-8613802

Did you ever make any progress?
 
Denny said:
So why don't you do some research and present us with evidence to the contrary? You've received several pretty well reasoned answers and all you say is "if you tell me it can't be done, I'll do it". That doesn't make much sense to me. Tell us why you think it can be done.
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Research are there to be question and challenge, I think ,instead theorizing, I will give a shot and see what's happen.the problem with homebrewing nowadays is that we learned from people that learned from commercial guys ,Boil 60 min,chill fast ,mash in cooler ...all this stuff is being question and debunked now.Its simple,if you want to brew beer that test and looks like commercial one ,go ahead,if you want
to brew something spectacular and special,break all the rules and do it what nobody had the balls to do it before.This is how real breakthroughs happen.
 
chef1978 said:
Research are there to be question and challenge, I think ,instead theorizing, I will give a shot and see what's happen.the problem with homebrewing nowadays is that we learned from people that learned from commercial guys ,Boil 60 min,chill fast ,mash in cooler ...all this stuff is being question and debunked now.Its simple,if you want to brew beer that test and looks like commercial one ,go ahead,if you want
to brew something spectacular and special,break all the rules and do it what nobody had the balls to do it before.This is how real breakthroughs happen.
Click to expand...

Don't expect a response from Denny. He did not like this forum and it's unlikely he will return.

Man this is an old thread (2009). Wonder if the original poster is still alive.
 

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