Final Gravity TOO LOW?!

[Brew-Dog]

Hi everybody, I've been lurking for a while but this is my first post. I'd really appreciate any help I can get.

Two weeks ago I did my first brew, it was an extract. Here's the details:

1 kg Wheat dried malt extract
1.3 kg Light malt extract (liquid)
500 g Light dried malt extract
500 g Wheat malt (steeped grain)
1 oz cascade
Wyeast Weihenstephan Weizen™ 3068 (no starter)

I steeped the grains at 160F for 45 mins. I added all of the malt at 60 mins (didn't realize I should have only used about 1/2 and then add the rest near flame out). Added 3/4 of the hops at 60 mins and the last 1/4 at 15 mins. Brewed it in 3 gallons of water, topped it up to 5 gallons in the carboy (primary) and made sure to pitch around the 70F mark.

Here's the problem. The OG said 1.07 which was much higher than expected. I wish I could go back in time and check it again, because this sounds ridiculous. It should have been somewhere in the 1.057 ballpark. Fermentation was pretty consistent at 75F and was crazy for the first couple of days. Had to add a blow off the second day.

A couple days ago, I took a gravity reading and it said 1.008!! It has been fermenting for 15 days, I still get about one bubble in the air lock every four minutes, so it's still going. (By the way, I tested the hydrometer and it isn't broken. It lines up to 1 in water.)

Did I mess up? Could it still drop lower? I've read that the fermentation may have been too strong and it might taste thin and dry, or I may have contaminated the batch with a foreign wild yeast at some point. I thought my sanitation was pretty good throughout the whole thing.

Can anyone shed some light on the situation. I'm only really concerned with the final gravity.

 

[inhousebrew]

That is pretty low. Is it too low. Only time will tell. You could just be getting some gas escaping that built up in there or maybe it could still be going. I'd wait it out, take another sample and taste it to see how it is. If it is too watery and thin you can add some stuff back in to give a little more body but worry about that if you get there.

If your volumes were correct and you added the correct amount of extract you should always get the right starting gravity or damn near close to it. With extract and topping off there is a chance you could have gotten a false reading if the water and wort didn't correctly mix. Meaning it could be too high or low.

 

[Brew-Dog]

That is pretty low. Is it too low. Only time will tell. You could just be getting some gas escaping that built up in there or maybe it could still be going. I'd wait it out, take another sample and taste it to see how it is. If it is too watery and thin you can add some stuff back in to give a little more body but worry about that if you get there.

If your volumes were correct and you added the correct amount of extract you should always get the right starting gravity or damn near close to it. With extract and topping off there is a chance you could have gotten a false reading if the water and wort didn't correctly mix. Meaning it could be too high or low.

Do you mean that there's a possibility that there's still CO2 rising through the beer which could cause a lower reading that expected? It still is fermenting slightly I'm guessing because there's still an airlock bubble approx. once every 5 mins and the beer looks slightly darker at the top than the middle and near the trub.

For the OG reading, I'm hoping you're right, although I did shake the crap out of it before taking the sample and pitching.

 

[berucha]

Did I mess up?.

Not necessarily.

Could it still drop lower?

Not really. If this is the case, you might have contamination. I would not worry too much with the 1.008 FG since you used around 45% of dry malt extract. I've seen beer made with 100% dry extract goes to 1.003 FG.

I've read that the fermentation may have been too strong and it might taste thin and dry?

That might have been the case especially if you had a too high yeast pitching rate (which lead to too fast fermentation also). But since you say your OG was 1.070, you would have needed a higher pitching rate anyway. And Wyeast liquid yeast usually contains enough cells to brew a 5 gallons wort (for a beer with OG < 1.060). (so you probably under pitch).

I may have contaminated the batch with a foreign wild yeast at some point.

If this is the case it will smell and taste very bad. You will not have any doubt. Did you smell it when it was fermenting?

Can anyone shed some light on the situation. I'm only really concerned with the final gravity.

Given the recipe you gave, you should have get between 1.053 and 1.058 OG. The only explanation I have is that you boil a bit too long and too much water evaporates but then you topped it up to 5 gallons which should have lowered the OG. If the OG was really 1.070 when you pitch the yeast, then you will have an 8% ABV which could be supported with an all grain beer but with dry extract, it will be a bit thin. But maybe you took the OG before adding water to top it at 5 gal? Anyway, aim OG between 1.048 and 1.056 when using more than 30% of dry extract. Especially because I think you are trying to make a Weizen bier which traditionally is not 8% alc. Hope it will turn out fine!

 

[Yooper]

1.008- 1.010 is a fine FG for that beer. It's good!

 

[Brew-Dog]

I would not worry too much with the 1.008 FG since you used around 45% of dry malt extract. I've seen beer made with 100% dry extract goes to 1.003 FG.

I didn't know that about dry extract, thanks. I still have a lot to learn!

If this is the case it will smell and taste very bad. You will not have any doubt. Did you smell it when it was fermenting?

I actually tasted the 1.008 gravity sample and it was actually really good. Smell was pretty nice. It did seem a little thin though and I wouldn't have guessed it to be in the 8% range. I'm really thinking that my OG reading must have been off.

But maybe you took the OG before adding water to top it at 5 gal? Anyway, aim OG between 1.048 and 1.056 when using more than 30% of dry extract. Especially because I think you are trying to make a Weizen bier which traditionally is not 8% alc. Hope it will turn out fine!

I took the reading after topping up and then added about another 500 ml after seeing the 1.07 reading, but it didn't seem to change anything. I'm guessing that maybe the wort and water weren't mixed properly when I took the reading?

1.008- 1.010 is a fine FG for that beer. It's good!

Thanks a lot for the insight guys! I really appreciate the help. It seems like the first brew must be one of the most stressful. It's like trying to raise your first born child, trying to give them everything they need to succeed (while making a couple mistakes along the way) and hoping that they don't turn out to be a dud...haha.

 

[Brew-Dog]

Just to give this story a little more colour, here's a pic. It's the one on the right:

I just brewed the one on the left a couple days ago. It's a pale ale with some orange and lemon zest added at flameout. Second brew went smoother than the first. I know it silly, but I could stare at them for hours (well maybe not hours, but at least 10 mins).

 

[Shred]

You're probably fine. Like you said, you probably just got a bad OG reading. As for the airlock bubbles - don't assume bubbles mean fermentation. Temp changes or movement could be causing gas to be forced out of the bucket/carboy. You'd be surprised how long the CO2 will remain in there (even with the lid off).

I drove myself insane with my first several brews, but looking back it's really not as easy to screw up as some of the horror stories might have you think.

If my ******* hasn't killed a beer yet, a monkey should be able to brew successfully!

 

[Shred]

Looks like beer from here!

 

[billl]

Your OG is what the recipe says. The measurement is messed up - probably from the top off water not mixing completely. That is VERY common. The positive is that extract has a fixed amount of sugar, so as long as you top off to the correct amount, your OG will be what the kit says it is.

If the FG stays at 1.008, then you would have (57-8)/57 = 85% attenuation. That is a little higher than I would expect with an extract batch and that yeast, but not absurdly so. Did you calibrate your hydrometer? Measure at the correct temp?

 

[Brew-Dog]

As for the airlock bubbles - don't assume bubbles mean fermentation. Temp changes or movement could be causing gas to be forced out of the bucket/carboy. You'd be surprised how long the CO2 will remain in there (even with the lid off).

Good to know! Thanks!

 

[Brew-Dog]

Your OG is what the recipe says. The measurement is messed up - probably from the top off water not mixing completely. That is VERY common. The positive is that extract has a fixed amount of sugar, so as long as you top off to the correct amount, your OG will be what the kit says it is.

Thanks for the reassurance.

If the FG stays at 1.008, then you would have (57-8)/57 = 85% attenuation. That is a little higher than I would expect with an extract batch and that yeast, but not absurdly so. Did you calibrate your hydrometer? Measure at the correct temp?

I think the hydrometer is fine. It lines up at 1 when in water at room temp (approx. 70F). The temperature of the beer is 65F or at least where the beer is being stored is 65F (it's in the basement, just a little cooler).

 

[Brew-Dog]

Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge everybody. It's putting my mind at ease. I think it will turn out fine...just hoping the gravity doesn't drop any further. I'm going to check it again in a few days. If the readings stay the same, I plan on bottling on Sunday.

 

[billl]

"I think the hydrometer is fine. It lines up at 1 when in water at room temp (approx. 70F). The temperature of the beer is 65F or at least where the beer is being stored is 65F (it's in the basement, just a little cooler)."

Most brewing hydrometers are adjusted to 60 degrees, so if it 1.000 at 70, it is would read 1.001 at 60. You'll need to add a point to your measurements. Not a big deal, but it means you are likely at 1.009.

Also, the measurement lines on buckets are pretty good, but you aren't going to be able to measure to 5.000 gallons or anything. More like 4.9-5.1. That introduces a couple percent uncertainty in your OG and expected attenuation.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry - especially if it tastes good.

 

[jCOSbrew]

For a higher gravity (ABV) brew like this batch keep it in the fermentor for a month. Even though fermentation is done, it will benefit from the additional conditioning.

 

[Brew-Dog]

For a higher gravity (ABV) brew like this batch keep it in the fermentor for a month. Even though fermentation is done, it will benefit from the additional conditioning.

I'm guessing that the wort and water weren't mixed enough when I took the reading. When I add up the recipe, it just doesn't seem realistic that the OG was that high. I'm guessing it was probably more around the 1.057 mark.

If it was, in fact, a false reading on my part and the real OG is 1.057, would you still recommend waiting even though fermentation has stopped? I was planning on bottling this Sunday which will be three weeks after I took the OG.

On a side note, I'm planning on bottling half and racking the other half to a secondary (10L demijohn) with added grapefruit zest and letting that go for about a week.

 

[billl]

No need to let this kind of brew age. If gravity is stable and it tastes good, go ahead and bottle.

 

[berucha]

Just to give this story a little more colour, here's a pic. It's the one on the right:

Bre-dog, according to your first post, these carboys are your primary fermenters (?) I just notice that you don't have 20 liters (around 5 gallons) in there unless these are 30 liters carboys (and that might explain the high OG). But I think this OG subject is pretty much close (i.e. you don't have a problem with that).

Here are my explanations, suggestions: Next time, watch your pitching rates. Over or under pitching can make a big difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. For example, I think you are trying to make a German Wheat where complex ester profile is desirable. In that case, it could have been beneficial to under pitch as it increases ester formation. Over pitching can lead to a very clean beer lacking an ester profile. On the contrary, beers that require a clean profile should be pitched at a slightly increased rate. This is so because the pitch rate will have a direct effect on the amount of cell growth during a fermentation (cell growth decreases as pitch rates increase). Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds. But pitch rate is not all, the yeast strain, OG of your wort and the control of temperature at different stage of fermentation will make huge differences in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. In fact the temperature control at different stage of fermentation will have a bigger impact than making all-grain vs extract (many experienced homebrewers don't know that).

Anyway I am speculating here but let say you had 17 liters atr 1.070, you would have need around 170 billion (slightly under pitch for a Weizen). You probably pitch between 80-100 billion cells using this Wyeast pack of weizen #3068 (depending on the fabrication date on the pack and conservation). So you very likely under pitch a lot which will favor a lot of ester but it depends on the fermentation temperature also. You mentionned 75°F. A lot of compounds and diacetyl will be created at that temp that will be above taste thresholds. For a weizen this is not really a problem but you will have to give it a diacetyl rest. This is absolutely very important!

Next, do you intend to transfer after primary fermentation? (the yeast cake looks quite big and you have a small risk of autolysis).

 

[berucha]

If it was, in fact, a false reading on my part and the real OG is 1.057, would you still recommend waiting even though fermentation has stopped? I was planning on bottling this Sunday which will be three weeks after I took the OG.

Whatever the OG was, you will have to give it a diacetyl rest (specially because you fermented at 75°F (and also possibly underpitch)). If fermentation has stopped and FG is 1.008 after 2 weeks, you should be OK to bottle after 3 weeks. Normally you should have transfered it to a secondary by then. In fact what you really want to do is to flush most of the yeast cake. So when you have a conical fermenter, you flush most of it and leave it there (no transfer to secondary) but when you have a regular primary, you transfer to a secondary without the yeast cake ( I always keep some to favor the diacetyl rest but not enough to trigger autolysis).

Usually give it a week after fermentation stopped (I mean when FG is attained) for a diacetyl rest in the secondary. (note that you can do a diacetyl test if you are not sure).

On a side note, I'm planning on bottling half and racking the other half to a secondary (10L demijohn) with added grapefruit zest and letting that go for about a week.

Yes you can do that. Transfer a little bit of the yeast cake also but not too much. Maybe the equivalent of 2-3 tablespoons. It does not have to be precise here, just transfer some. Be careful to not overexpose your beer to oxygen (air) when you transfer because it could trigger a chemical precursor (acetolactate) that will eventually add too much diacetyl in your beer (bad banana taste!)

 

[Brew-Dog]

Wow Berucha, you just dropped a knowledge bomb on me, thanks for all the info. I still have quite a bit of reading to do!

 

[Brew-Dog]

Bre-dog, according to your first post, these carboys are your primary fermenters (?) I just notice that you don't have 20 liters (around 5 gallons) in there unless these are 30 liters carboys (and that might explain the high OG).

The carboys are my primary fermenters, but they're both 6.5 Gallons (approx. 24.6 Liters). I measured out both of them with water before adding the wort and put a strip of tape at the 5 Gallon mark. They're probably both off by a little, but not much.

Here are my explanations, suggestions: Next time, watch your pitching rates. Over or under pitching can make a big difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer.

I totally agree. I felt like I had done a bunch of research and was getting anxious to brew. In hindsight, I had really only scratched the surface. At the time, I didn't realize that I was under-pitching that much. For my second brew (the lighter one in the pic), I used a yeast calculator and made a starter. It's fermenting beautifully.

You mentioned 75°F. A lot of compounds and diacetyl will be created at that temp that will be above taste thresholds. For a weizen this is not really a problem but you will have to give it a diacetyl rest. This is absolutely very important!

For the first few hours after pitching it was at 75F so I moved it to the basement. For the next couple of next day it was around 68F and then for the rest of the time, it stayed at 65F. This is all based off of the temperature strip that I stuck on the carboy. I'm sure it's not the most accurate, but it's better than nothing. I will do some research on "diacetyl rest." Thanks a lot for the tip.

Next, do you intend to transfer after primary fermentation? (the yeast cake looks quite big and you have a small risk of autolysis).

Yeah, if fermentation is done by Sunday, I was planning to transfer half of it to a bottling bucket and then bottling. I was going to transfer the other half to a 10L demijohn (secondary fermenter) for another week with some added grapefruit zest. Is this a bad idea? I didn't know that there was a risk of autolysis with transferring.

 

[Brew-Dog]

Normally you should have transfered it to a secondary by then. In fact what you really want to do is to flush most of the yeast cake. So when you have a conical fermenter, you flush most of it and leave it there (no transfer to secondary) but when you have a regular primary, you transfer to a secondary without the yeast cake ( I always keep some to favor the diacetyl rest but not enough to trigger autolysis).

I was under the impression that you didn't need to transfer to a secondary unless you wanted the beer to be more clear, to dry hop or add something else. I thought autolysis wasn't supposed to happen unless you left the beer on top of the yeast for extended amounts of time (like over a couple of months).

Yes you can do that. Transfer a little bit of the yeast cake also but not too much. Maybe the equivalent of 2-3 tablespoons.

Good to know, I wouldn't have done that! How do you transfer the yeast? Do you just try to suck some of it out with the beer while you're syphoning to the secondary?

 

[berucha]

Yeah, if fermentation is done by Sunday, I was planning to transfer half of it to a bottling bucket and then bottling. I was going to transfer the other half to a 10L demijohn (secondary fermenter) for another week with some added grapefruit zest. Is this a bad idea? I didn't know that there was a risk of autolysis with transferring.

I am not sure what you mean by "if fermentation is done by Sunday". I was under the impression that fermentation was done with FG 1.008.

Anyway, no this is not a bad idea at all if you like the grapefruit aroma (and since the femrnetation is done or almost). As I mentionned in previous post, be careful to not overexpose (shake it, splash it,etc..) your beer to oxygen (air) when you transfer.

 

[berucha]

I was under the impression that you didn't need to transfer to a secondary unless you wanted the beer to be more clear, to dry hop or add something else.

No the main reason to put it in a secondary is to separate the bulk of the yeast cake from the beer. (that is why conical fermenters are so practical because you can flush the cake without transfering + you can also harvest yeast for reuse).

I thought autolysis wasn't supposed to happen unless you left the beer on top of the yeast for extended amounts of time (like over a couple of months).

That is why I wrote small risk. The longer it stays, the higher the risk. Autolysis can happen especially if you over pitch and have a very large yeast cake.

Do you just try to suck some of it out with the beer while you're syphoning to the secondary?

Yes. But as I wrote not much (2-3 tablespoons). This is to help the diacetyl rest. You can throw it away when you bottle or keg the beer.

BTW, Beyond The Pale is not bad at all (saw it in the picture). But I guarantee you can do even better. Focus on yeast, yeast strain and fermentation temperature at different stages (adapted for the style of beer you are making). This is even more important than brewing all grain vs extract.

 

[Brew-Dog]

I am not sure what you mean by "if fermentation is done by Sunday". I was under the impression that fermentation was done with FG 1.008.

1.008 is the reading I got on Sunday, it was the first time I checked the gravity since I took the OG (just over two weeks ago). I haven't checked it since then because it's at my girlfriend's place. (She's an awesome lady for letting me brew there.) I'll take another reading on Thursday, when I go over there. Hopefully, it won't have dropped any lower.

 

[Yooper]

I was under the impression that you didn't need to transfer to a secondary unless you wanted the beer to be more clear, to dry hop or add something else. I thought autolysis wasn't supposed to happen unless you left the beer on top of the yeast for extended amounts of time (like over a couple of months).


Good to know, I wouldn't have done that! How do you transfer the yeast? Do you just try to suck some of it out with the beer while you're syphoning to the secondary?

You don't have to transfer. I wouldn't, and rarely do- especially for lower OG beers. If the SG is is unchanging after at least three days, and the beer is clearing it's fine to bottle.

You don't want to make an effort to transfer trub- there are billions of yeast in suspension even in a super clear beer.

Lots of information there, some of it not exactly good (fermentability of extract, need for a diacetyl rest, and so on), so don't be afraid to take all advice with a grain of salt.

 

[Brew-Dog]

Yes. But as I wrote not much (2-3 tablespoons). This is to help the diacetyl rest. You can throw it away when you bottle or keg the beer.

Will do, thanks again for all the help!

BTW, Beyond The Pale is not bad at all (saw it in the picture). But I guarantee you can do even better. Focus on yeast, yeast strain and fermentation temperature at different stages (adapted for the style of beer you are making). This is even more important than brewing all grain vs extract.

Haha, I didn't think anyone would recognize the growler. You must be from the Ottawa area?

 

[Brew-Dog]

You don't have to transfer. I wouldn't, and rarely do- especially for lower OG beers. If the SG is is unchanging after at least three days, and the beer is clearing it's fine to bottle.

You don't want to make an effort to transfer trub- there are billions of yeast in suspension even in a super clear beer.

Lots of information there, some of it not exactly good (fermentability of extract, need for a diacetyl rest, and so on), so don't be afraid to take all advice with a grain of salt.

Thanks for the input, I know that everyone has good intentions and I appreciate all the insight I'm getting. I'll have to continue doing a little more research and take the path that best suits my goals.

 

[Brew-Dog]

Not to hijack my own thread, but.... I have some clear 750ml swing-top bottles that I was planning on using to bottle some of this brew. The hops are at a pretty low level so I'm not too worried of skunking. But, I've heard that beer in clear bottles have to stay out of direct sunlight. Does normal indoor light matter (non uv lighbulbs)? Would the beer be affected at night (when it's dark outside) if I was indoors with the lights on?

 

[berucha]

You don't have to transfer. I wouldn't, and rarely do- especially for lower OG beers. If the SG is is unchanging after at least three days, and the beer is clearing it's fine to bottle.
You don't want to make an effort to transfer trub- there are billions of yeast in suspension even in a super clear beer.
Lots of information there, some of it not exactly good (fermentability of extract, need for a diacetyl rest, and so on), so don't be afraid to take all advice with a grain of salt.

I fully agree he should not be obsessed with it. But most of what I wrote is based on chemistry knowledge and very often this is the difference between a fairly good beer and an astonishing one. Most home brewers are satisfied with a good beer and that is fine. But the quality of their beer vary from one batch to another because they partially rely on luck. Like they do a diacetyl rest but they don't know it (so they think it is not important), or they don't care about the pitching rate putting whatever yeast strain in the wort. And BTW, the yeast in suspension you are talking about don't have the same properties as the one in the bottom. And I never wrote about fermentability of extract, you must have understood me wrong. The reason why using dry extract can lead to an lower FG, (if this is what you are reffering to) has little to do with fermentability. But that is another story (in which you are probably not interested anyway).

If you are already making a very good beer (which I am sure you do) you could improve it even further with some chemistry knowledge. But if it is good enough for you then this is what counts in the end. But please don't tell what I wrote is not exactly good unless you can explain why it is not exactly good because just saying it does not make it so.

 

[Yooper]

If you are already making a very good beer (which I am sure you do) you could improve it even further with some chemistry knowledge. But if it is good enough for you then this is what counts in the end. But please don't tell what I wrote is not exactly good unless you can explain why it is not exactly good because just saying it does not make it so.

Yes, my brewing chemistry knowledge is lacking. My beer is "good enough" anyway, I suppose.

If you want to discuss a bit of brewing science, why what you said about FGs with DME being low is incorrect, why trub isn't needed for full attenuation, proper yeast pitching rates, etc, then please go to the Brew Science forum. This is off topic for this thread, as well as not really for the "beginners brew forum".

 

[berucha]

Thanks for the input, I know that everyone has good intentions and I appreciate all the insight I'm getting. I'll have to continue doing a little more research and take the path that best suits my goals.

You are absolutely right and I am sorry if I gave you too much info to begin with. I have absolutely no problem with fellow brewers contesting my advices/knowledge/experiences as long as they mentioned why. I h've been making beer for 25 years and still learning.

If you are interested, you can read the first chapter of that:
http://www.unifr.ch/biochem/assets/files/schneiter/cours/Yeast/YeastGenetics.pdf

The rest is probably too technical and the relationship with beer is not trivial without biology knowledge.

A better book for brewers that is much less technical with a lot of practical advices was written by Chris White (of White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff (Yeast God!:rockin is titled:

Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation

 

[chickypad]

I think what we also all need to be careful of when giving advice to very new brewers is the tendency to imply that they may have messed up doing something a certain way. A lot of your advice seems to come from professional brewing techniques. I think the yeast autolysis and the need for secondary, for example, has been pretty beat to death on here and disproved by many of us in real practice on the homebrew scale. Even John Palmer has changed his stance on this.
So when you say to a new brewer "you should have transferred to a secondary by then" rather than "I like to use a secondary because" I think it can be confusing.

speaking of beating a dead horse...

sorry OP your thread seems to have been hijacked!

 

[Shred]

I like turtles.

 

[MrMonkey]

Thanks for the link, info, & book rec berucha.

You are absolutely right and I am sorry if I gave you too much info to begin with. I have absolutely no problem with fellow brewers contesting my advices/knowledge/experiences as long as they mentioned why. I h've been making beer for 25 years and still learning.

If you are interested, you can read the first chapter of that:
http://www.unifr.ch/biochem/assets/files/schneiter/cours/Yeast/YeastGenetics.pdf

The rest is probably too technical and the relationship with beer is not trivial without biology knowledge.

A better book for brewers that is much less technical with a lot of practical advices was written by Chris White (of White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff (Yeast God!:rockin is titled:

Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation

 

[berucha]

Yes, my brewing chemistry knowledge is lacking. My beer is "good enough" anyway, I suppose.

If you want to discuss a bit of brewing science, why what you said about FGs with DME being low is incorrect, why trub isn't needed for full attenuation, proper yeast pitching rates, etc, then please go to the Brew Science forum.

Don't take it the wrong way Yooper I never wrote that trub was needed for full attenuation. In fact it is not needed at all for full attenuation. I was just saying that a little bit of trub in the secondary helps yeast (thru enzymes) reabsorbs diacetyl and converts it to acetoin and 2,3-butanediol. Those compounds have higher flavor thresholds than diacetyl. But if you don't transfer to secondary, it will do the job anyway if you leave the beer rest at ale temp after fermentation between 4 days and a week (and as I wrote the risk of autolysis is low).

About the DME. FG depends on how the yeast strain ferments the available sugar. Let say you have a yeast strain that has an attenuation range between 73% to 77%. The dry extract brew will generally hit the higher end of this range while the all-grain will be somewhat lower. This is because the mashing process and grain types affect the FG (for example higher mash temperatures add to final gravity). This is why a common problem with malt extract beers are the thin and dry palate which correlates with a low FG. Because you don't control the mashing process. So when I saw brew-dog used 45% of dry extract, I was not surprise at all to see FG of 1.008 (have seen 1.003 with DME, never with all grain in 25 years!). The same FG with all-grain would have been more suspicious (unless someone mashed at very low temp). (and I am not saying that it is not possible to get higher FG with extract, for example Munton’s light malt extract will give you lower FG than John Bull of England extract).

This is off topic for this thread, as well as not really for the "beginners brew forum".

I am so lunatic sometimes that I did not notice that and brew-dog seems interested. So you are right. All and all peace man :rockin:

 

[berucha]

I think what we also all need to be careful of when giving advice to very new brewers is the tendency to imply that they may have messed up doing something a certain way. A lot of your advice seems to come from professional brewing techniques. I think the yeast autolysis and the need for secondary, for example, has been pretty beat to death on here and disproved by many of us in real practice on the homebrew scale. Even John Palmer has changed his stance on this.
So when you say to a new brewer "you should have transferred to a secondary by then" rather than "I like to use a secondary because" I think it can be confusing.

speaking of beating a dead horse...

sorry OP your thread seems to have been hijacked!

Fully agree. Old guy has old habits. I always transfer to secondary (nowadays mainly because of dry or wet hopping) but also because I seem to achieve better control and results with a smaller yeast cake when giving the diacetyl rest.

 

[Yooper]

But if you don't transfer to secondary, it will do the job anyway if you leave the beer rest at ale temp after fermentation between 4 days and a week (and as I wrote the risk of autolysis is low).

About the DME. FG depends on how the yeast strain ferments the available sugar. Let say you have a yeast strain that has an attenuation range between 73% to 77%. The dry extract brew will generally hit the higher end of this range while the all-grain will be somewhat lower. This is because the mashing process and grain types affect the FG (for example higher mash temperatures add to final gravity). This is why a common problem with malt extract beers are the thin and dry palate which correlates with a low FG. Because you don't control the mashing process. So when I saw brew-dog used 45% of dry extract, I was not surprise at all to see FG of 1.008 (have seen 1.003 with DME, never with all grain in 25 years!). The same FG with all-grain would have been more suspicious (unless someone mashed at very low temp). (and I am not saying that it is not possible to get higher FG with extract, for example Munton&#8217;s light malt extract will give you lower FG than John Bull of England extract).

Again, we're getting off topic here, but there are a couple of quick points to make. The thinking in the last few years I've been homebrewing is to totally skip the secondary, instead leaving the beer in the fermenter for at least 3 days after FG is reached. (Sort of a diacetyl rest at the end of primary). Many brewers subscribe to this thinking, and will go 3 weeks or more in the fermenter. So, for you to come into the forum and talk about "secondary" (more properly called a bright tank) is unusual and most people have no idea what you're talking about. Using a bright tank isn't wrong, of course- it's just more uncommon recently and generally not done by experienced homebrewers. Some newer kit instructions leave the bright tank step out, and it's customary to not rack out of the fermenter until package, especially for lower OG beers.

Interestingly, I've NEVER had any extract ferment below 1.010, and often it stick at 1.020. That's because many manufacturers use things like carapils in their extract, and extract ranges from 65% (Laaglander) to 75% (Briess) fermentable. To get a 1.003 out of a full extract batch is almost impossible, if you listen to the extract manufacturers (and all the experience that many of us have). And I've had many AG beers finish lower than extract batches- due to lower mash temperatures, a lengthy beta amylase rest, and using adjuncts. Saisons often finish at 1.003-1.005, and that's routine for AG brewers, but not extract brewers.

Again, we're off topic here, and from now on all off-topic posts will be removed. I just thought a valid point deserved an answer.

 

[Brew-Dog]

Hey fellas, I really appreciate ALL the info and it just reminds me of how technical brewing can be. As much as it's a lot to wrap my mind around, it is also fun to learn about. Some of the discussion in this thread is pretty advanced, but I'm interested in it all and look forward to becoming more knowledgeable with each brew. If I only cared this much about science in high school, I'd probably be living a lot more comfortably now!

PS. Thoughts on the clear bottles....? Fine when not exposed to UV light?

 

[Yooper]

Hey fellas, I really appreciate ALL the info and it just reminds me of how technical brewing can be. As much as it's a lot to wrap my mind around, it is also fun to learn about. Some of the discussion in this thread is pretty advanced, but I'm interested in it all and look forward to becoming more knowledgeable with each brew. If I only cared this much about science in high school, I'd probably be living a lot more comfortably now!

PS. Thoughts on the clear bottles....? Fine when not exposed to UV light?

My preference would be to keep them covered even in other places. If you can just throw a towel over the case, that would be fine.