BIAB Keggle Design

[triskelion]

This is what i'm thinking of for my keggle build. I'm going to heat it with a 3KW element, control temp with an stc-1000. Also integrated is a counter flow chiller, sight tube and either a pulley or just a hook to help with the brew bag. I may add some buttresses to widen it for stability. Hopefully i'll be able to get my hands on a keg soon and make a start.

critique would be appreciated.

 

[jmzcustomz]

Looks really kool. I would almost suggest collapsable outriggers for stability on brew day. Something that just folds down and locks into place to keep it from tipping.

 

[triskelion]

Looks really kool. I would almost suggest collapsable outriggers for stability on brew day. Something that just folds down and locks into place to keep it from tipping.

Not a bad idea, I'll have to give that some thought.

 

[jeffmeh]

Interesting. You will be able to hold tighter mash temps with a PID than a thermostat, but it will certainly work. You are going to need a higher rated relay to drive the 3000w element regardless.

 

[BigFloyd]

Interesting. You will be able to hold tighter mash temps with a PID than a thermostat, but it will certainly work. You are going to need a higher rated relay to drive the 3000w element regardless.

I love my STC-1000 controllers for fermenting, lagering and keezer, but would be hesitant to use them for e-brewing. You can't run an element directly off one as the amp draw would roast the controller. There's a reason most folks run a PID to an SSR to a contactor then to the element.

 

[triskelion]

How much of an improvement will a PID make over a thermostat? I can't find any example of a comparison. I think an SSR would be a necessity, whether i'm using a PID or a thermostat. I'll need 13A if I'm running 3KW at 240V.

 

[jCOSbrew]

I use a PID in thermostat on/off mode to control strike and mash temps. PIDs accept rtd sensors for more accurate temp readings than thermistor or thermocouple.

Also think about controlling power to element during the boil.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I like the look of just a single mast for hoisting the bag, less clutter around the kettle, JMO...

 

[triskelion]

wilser,

I could do that, I guess it probably would be strong enough. also i was thinking of changing it to three legs so that it would balance on an uneven floor, and so that I would save a bit of money on castors .

 

[jeffmeh]

I use a PID in thermostat on/off mode to control strike and mash temps. PIDs accept rtd sensors for more accurate temp readings than thermistor or thermocouple.

Also think about controlling power to element during the boil.

Excellent point regarding the boil. A PID with manual mode will allow you to manage a boil, where the thermostat will not.

 

[triskelion]

Ok, I changed it to three legs, widened them for a bit more stability and give it a simpler hoist. Need to start thinking about the interior, I'll need a false bottom to keep the bag away from the element, I may just use some course mesh and then have something finer like steel braid on the drain.

btw, just got my hands on a keg, so I can start construction in a few days. looks like it once contained guinness.

 

[Ramarok]

Subscribed... really interested to see how this turns out. Looks like a great design.

 

[aledawg]

Would it be possible for you to post the specs on the 3kW heating element? I'm considering one for my own setup.

 

[Sunnycoastbrewer]

Looks great. What lenght Counter flow chiller coil is it mate?
Cheers
Joe

 

[triskelion]

Would it be possible for you to post the specs on the 3kW heating element? I'm considering one for my own setup.

I haven't decided on one to buy yet but i'll likely post up my progress when i get there.

 

[triskelion]

Looks great. What lenght Counter flow chiller coil is it mate?
Cheers
Joe

My model uses 10m of copper. I'm not sure if its going to be as long as that yet, depends what I can get and the cost. Half that length would likely be enough

 

[shiproute]

You could use the Bayou Classic 15.5 gal brew kettle with the boil basket. The boil basket works perfectly as a false bottom and to hoist the bag out.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FTEQBK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/brew-bag-biab-equipment-summary-185013/

 

[hungry4hops]

man that is going to be a sweet setup! good luck with the build, cant wait to see it in action!

 

[BetterSense]

PID control is pointless for brewing. The only reason people use PID controllers is they are convenient and usually allow manual control. Thermostatic control is perfectly fine. But an STC1000 won't switch an element by itself; you could get an AC SSR and still use an STC1000.

For BIAB i use my own simple brew control firmware which you can read the PDF document at

https://github.com/Fasrad/brewtroller/tree/fancy

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

My wife says "it looks like the bottom of a lightbulb" Pardon the noobish question, but if the CFC is built into the rig, then how would you go about cleaning/sanitizing the coil before brewing. With an immersion chiller, you can boil it... I have never used a counterflow, so the answer may be obvious, but I am having a hard time picturing it.

 

[triskelion]

My wife says "it looks like the bottom of a lightbulb" Pardon the noobish question, but if the CFC is built into the rig, then how would you go about cleaning/sanitizing the coil before brewing. With an immersion chiller, you can boil it... I have never used a counterflow, so the answer may be obvious, but I am having a hard time picturing it.

I was going to just run some starsan through it and seal the end to keep the bugs out untill i'm ready to let the wort through it. I could also run boiling water through it as well. also another option would be to have a quick release connection for removing it but i don't think that would be necessary.

 

[Mysticmead]

if you cut the bottom for the keggle opening, then you can have a center drain using a tri-clover fitting to attach the CFC. this will allow it to be removed for extreme cleaning and/or replacement.

 

[tre9er]

if you cut the bottom for the keggle opening, then you can have a center drain using a tri-clover fitting to attach the CFC. this will allow it to be removed for extreme cleaning and/or replacement.

I would DEFINITELY do this. I wish I had done this on my keggle. I was all ready to put a bottom drain in (weldless) the other day when I realized I wasn't going to get all of the liquid out...What's the point of CIP if there's liquid around the fitting at the bottom of the vessel??

 

[triskelion]

the build has begun! and its over here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/biab-keggle-build-411144/#post5196993

 

[jCOSbrew]

FYI, this is the standard chiller config:

Kettle --> Ball Valve --> Pump --> Ball Valve --> Chiller (CFC or plate chiller) --> Recirc to kettle or to fermenter.

I find a plate chiller to be very effective. In addition to cleaning, you can recirculate the last 10 minutes of the boil through CFC or plate chiller to sanitize w/ boiling wort.

What is your water temp input to the CFC? This will determine if you can chill w/ a single pass and the CFC length. Gravity feed vs pump will effect the wort flow rate and total time to chill X gallons of wort.

 

[triskelion]

FYI, this is the standard chiller config:

What is your water temp input to the CFC? This will determine if you can chill w/ a single pass and the CFC length. Gravity feed vs pump will effect the wort flow rate and total time to chill X gallons of wort.

my water is 10oC (51oF). Do you know the formula for working out the chilled wort temperature? I presume that it'll involve the surface area, flow rate, temperature difference and thermal conductivity

 

[tre9er]

my water is 10oC (51oF). Do you know the formula for working out the chilled wort temperature? I presume that it'll involve the surface area, flow rate, temperature difference and thermal conductivity

I'm interested in this as well, although at first I'll probably just recirc the CFC into the BK until the wort exiting the chiller reaches pitching temps. I can't imagine it will take more than a few minutes.

 

[triskelion]

my plan was to use an overkill length of copper pipe and gradually turn on the valve until its just about pitching temperature.
btw wouldn't filling a jug and putting it back in work just as well as a pump for cleaning the CFC with hot wort?

 

[jCOSbrew]

With cold input water temp (50degF), with a big enough CFC, and by reducing wort flow rate, you should be able to hit your wort pitching temps. Put a dial thermometer on the output of the CFC.

For example, I have a plate chiller, 60-65degF input water temp, and get 70degF wort output @ approximately 1GPM (Gallon per Minute). I can't help you w/ the thermo calcs.

The main limitation of gravity feed is for cleaning and that you cannot recirculate during the boil to "sanitize" the CFC w/ boiling wort. CFC is supposed to be easier to clean than a plate chiller so maybe the re-circulation step is overkill.

 

[tre9er]

You can always run boiling water/wort through CFC/plate into another vessel, half gallon at a time, say, then pour back in (if wort), etc. A pain, yes, but technically possible.