Need a push please - moving towards plumbing/automation

[LBussy]

Hello homebrewers!

I was pointed towards this forum area to get some ideas, and inspiration, and a little guidance for a brew setup. I have been brewing over 30 years, but have always used the manpower method. I want to at least add PID control to my mash, and then probably some pumps and valves to help reduce the amount of hose-switch dancing. Full automation may happen, but it is not important right now. I’ll call this semi–automation.

I already have:

• 10 gallon cooler mash tun with SS false bottom
• Kettle
• Propane burner
• Counterflow chiller

Will be doing mostly 5 gallon batches, with the occasional high gravity brew.

I feel like RIMS is the proper solution for me. I’m not 100% sold on that but it feels more efficient.

I have looked at the direct Sparge systems, and I do not think that is a viable solution for me. While very ingenious, I believe I will have to treat my sparge water more often than not.

I don’t have any preference with regard to tiers, as a matter of fact I was thinking something along the lines of gravity feed Sparge, with two pumps might be a good set up. I am looking for the basis for automation, if I don’t ever really do full automation. I will be doing PID control for my mash of course, but the valves I may actuate electrically with switches.

I know nothing about actually designing/using a pump valve setup, so please feel free to dumb it down for me. i.e. if you recommend a "2VDS" please tell me what that is and maybe point me towards an example (although this is the one setup I semi-understand.)

I am VERY likely to ask dumb questions - just a warning.

 

[day_trippr]

It's a start

I'm not sure a two tier makes all that much sense in the end. Only one transfer could take advantage of gravity - either sparge liquor to MLT if the HLT is above the other two vessels, or lautering from MLT to BK if the BK is below the others. Doesn't seem like much of a win to me, and then your transfer speed is limited to whatever gravity provides. Pumps don't cost that much that it's a big cost win, either.

What would be your preferred framing material? If welded mild steel I recommend 1-1/2" square in either 16 or 14 gauge depending on your fab skills (16 if good, 14 if not). Or would you go with something like strut?

Cheers!

 

[LBussy]

I would imagine I would use whatever I had laying around on a “temporary” basis and never post a picture.

I do not presently have a welder, but am pretty good with arc. If I really needed something I might first check out the restaurant supply/surplus route.

I’m really interested in hearing about this direct sparge thing @BrunDog was talking about. I saw his diagram but in practice I’m not sure how you get 168 degree water “directly.”

 

[day_trippr]

I haven't checked that out but first inkling would center on an "on demand" water heater...

Cheers!

 

[d3track]

If you're going to use pumps, might as well go single tier, less hassle getting vessels and liquids to higher positions.
Are you thinking of using PID temp controllers, or software (BruControl, CraftbeerPi, etc). My first go towards electric was RIMS for mash and propane for the boil. The control panel held a PID temp controller and switches for pumps. Looking back, if I wanted to build something similar, I'd use the same temp controller but a NodeMCU and relays for the pumps (this is what I have now for my pumps and fans so I can use Google Assistant and not push any buttons).

I remember a video a little back, either Bobby_M or BrunDog, that showed the sparge on demand - I think it was a combination of straight 5500W element in a RIMS tube and slower flow rate (wanted for sparging anyways) to get close to boiling temp.

*found it

 

[LBussy]

Yeah I didn’t see a reason to tier anything either, but there’s a lot I don’t know yet. I’m on the plane now so I’ll look at that bid later.

The one thing I keep going back to is my desire to be able to pre-treat sparge water. If that’s less of a good idea with direct sparge, then I have a tank of water heating up. If I have a tank of water that’s heated, I can use that as the basis for HERMS I’d think?

So many choices!

 

[LBussy]

I remember a video a little back, either Bobby_M or BrunDog, that showed the sparge on demand - I think it was a combination of straight 5500W element in a RIMS tube and slower flow rate (wanted for sparging anyways) to get close to boiling temp.

I had a look at that video. While I can see where it meets the coolness factor, not being able to pre-treat the water (or use dechlorinated water) makes it a non-starter for me. If I have to run it from a vessel I might as well de-couple the heating from the flow and make my life easier. At least that's how it seems. I am perfectly happy assuming I'm looking at it wrong.

Are you thinking of using PID temp controllers, or software (BruControl, CraftbeerPi, etc). My first go towards electric was RIMS for mash and propane for the boil. The control panel held a PID temp controller and switches for pumps. Looking back, if I wanted to build something similar, I'd use the same temp controller but a NodeMCU and relays for the pumps (this is what I have now for my pumps and fans so I can use Google Assistant and not push any buttons).

Both? I'd prefer true PWM with PID - however I get there. That comes later I think - the hardware has to be how I want it first. If (heaven forbid) I have to roll my own, I can.

 

[garzlok]

I ended up building a 3V2P Hybrid. I use LP to heat my HLT and BK. Then I have a RIMS tube with a 1650W ULD element on an Inkbird to control mash temp/recirculate mash.

My one pump (on the right) only sees water. My pump on the left, recirculates the mash and then fills the BK. In the picture above, I’m in the process of fly sparging.

I do have two hose transfers. Because I underlet my strike water, I have to move my hose from my MLT drain valve to my MLT sparge valve (for sparging). On the wort side, I have to move my hose from the MLT return valve, for recirculating, to my BK drain valve to fill the BK.

I don’t have a picture of the back of my MLT, but the bulk head attaches to a T, and on each side of the T is a valve. When I’m mashing and recirculating, the sparge valve is closed. When I’m sparging, the recirculate valve is closed.

FWIW...the RIMS tube and Inkbird are awesome and I’m extremely happy I went that route.

 

[adman]

@LBussy — I built a system that is capable of on-demand sparge water heating. My full build is documented here, but here’s a picture of the completed plumbing:

Water comes in from my pipes via a hose that attaches to the blue valve on the top left side--it can fill either the BK or the MT or run directly through the RIMS tube on the left side and into the MT. It's a 240v 5500w element, so it should have plenty of juice to heat sparge water. *** I will give the extremely important caveat that I mostly do full volume mashes with no sparge, so I've only ever attempted to sparge on demand once, and I was unable to control the flow well enough to get the sparge temp stable at much over 140 degrees (Chicago municipal water in January is low 40s coming out of the pipes). I just installed a RO system at home, so I may crib further from @BrunDog and put a couple of aqua-tainers on my brewstand instead of sparging straight from the pipes. I'm planning a maibock for my next brew and that will require a sparge, as my 10 gallon mashtun isn't big enough to do a 1.072 beer with a full volume mash.

 

[LBussy]

@garzlok how did you plumb in the sparge pipe on the top of the MLT? Is that a purpose-built fitting?

 

[garzlok]

So male Loctite into 1/2” Coupler into..

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/vb2.htm

...Through cooler wall to 1/2” T, split to 2 valves with a Camlock on each.

I got all my parts through brewhardware.com. As you plan your system, think about how you want to couple everything together. I use Camlocks...I’ll be honest, Tri-Clamps are really nice. If you go Camlocks...get them from Bobby...I bought a few from someone else and I curse every time I have to lock them down.

EDIT: if you even think you want to go full automation, I would highly consider going all electric.

 

[LBussy]

So male Loctite into 1/2” Coupler into..

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/vb2.htm

...Through cooler wall to 1/2” T, split to 2 valves with a Camlock on each.

So basically one of these? And you do a 13/16" inside hole and a larger one on the outside just like the original drain down below?

EDIT: if you even think you want to go full automation, I would highly consider going all electric.

Understood. Right now I have a very nice Blichmann HellFire Burner but I understand how electric would be easier to automate.

Keep in mind, right now I infusion mash (or decoction) so automating my mash is a HUGE step up. From there, I automate the sparge. from there I can worry about an electric boil.

 

[SundayBrewer]

I ended up building a 3V2P Hybrid. I use LP to heat my HLT and BK. Then I have a RIMS tube with a 1650W ULD element on an Inkbird to control mash temp/recirculate mash.

View attachment 670135

My one pump (on the right) only sees water. My pump on the left, recirculates the mash and then fills the BK. In the picture above, I’m in the process of fly sparging.

I do have two hose transfers. Because I underlet my strike water, I have to move my hose from my MLT drain valve to my MLT sparge valve (for sparging). On the wort side, I have to move my hose from the MLT return valve, for recirculating, to my BK drain valve to fill the BK.

View attachment 670138

I don’t have a picture of the back of my MLT, but the bulk head attaches to a T, and on each side of the T is a valve. When I’m mashing and recirculating, the sparge valve is closed. When I’m sparging, the recirculate valve is closed.

FWIW...the RIMS tube and Inkbird are awesome and I’m extremely happy I went that route.

Are you brewing on the sidewalk. lol

 

[garzlok]

I fear the bulkhead you reference my not be big enough to go through a cooler. I pieced mine together using the below products.

Yes, I had to drill a new hole. Drilled 13/16 I believe. It was tight. On the outside of my cooler, I had a ridge to deal with. I took a razor blade and trimmed a bit of the ridge off so my washer could sit flush...that was the trickiest part of the install...and it wasn’t really that difficult.

The use of the mini ball valves does restrict flow, but I figured restricting on a recirc or sparge wasn’t a bad thing and decided to use them.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/mashrecirculation.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/fullcoupling.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/vb2.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tee12.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/minibv.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/camf.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/vb2.htm

Yeah...I was in the exact same boat as you at the end of 2018. A brew pot, cooler mash tun, immersion chiller, and a Hellfire.

 

[LBussy]

I fear the bulkhead you reference my not be big enough to go through a cooler.

Okay, that answered my question I think. You are capturing both "walls" of the cooler on your bulkhead. What I was suggesting is cutting a larger hole on the outside, removing the insulation, and only capturing a single wall - similar to the drain hole.

 

[garzlok]

Okay, that answered my question I think. You are capturing both "walls" of the cooler on your bulkhead. What I was suggesting is cutting a larger hole on the outside, removing the insulation, and only capturing a single wall - similar to the drain hole.

Sorry, slow on the uptake. Yeah, I catch both interior and exterior walls.

 

[BrunDog]

I would imagine I would use whatever I had laying around on a “temporary” basis and never post a picture.

I do not presently have a welder, but am pretty good with arc. If I really needed something I might first check out the restaurant supply/surplus route.

I’m really interested in hearing about this direct sparge thing @BrunDog was talking about. I saw his diagram but in practice I’m not sure how you get 168 degree water “directly.”

Sorry I never saw this. If it's something you are still interested in, I can help.

 

[LBussy]

Sorry I never saw this. If it's something you are still interested in, I can help.

Honestly, I forget what my hangup was. I got sidetracked on another new electronic project, but I will automate my brewing one of these days for sure.