Mold Floating

[Carmelo bono]

Hello,

I have had one successful batch of beer (a pilsner) and it was, well, a pilsner-not really aromatic or "different", so my buddies and I wanted to try something different. We tried an IPA.

Where I am coming from (my frustration):

This is the second damn time I have lost a batch of IPA, I have had mold floating on the top of my brew. I'm at wits end. Last time, waited a day or two too long, this time I followed the fermentation recommendation and sure enough, after a secondary transfer. Mold about a week later, I think it was the dry hop bag (used Chinook) I had used that time-clean, but not starsan clean.

Research Yields:

I have read that its not a big deal if you catch it early on. Unfortunately I don't have pictures as a buddy has it at his brewery and just messaged me. Long story short, he is about an hour away and I am trying to make some at home with a couple other amateurs like myself. I have been learning from him using a home kit. I'll take a look and post pics when I get them.

In regards to sanitation:

I "Starsan" everything. If I have a contamination, I have no idea from where. Fermented in a plastic fermenter @about 16-17C for 12 days (was fine then), put it in the keg, buddy messaged me said it was "sour". He opened it up and said he saw mold floating. I didn't filter it but was careful not to take sediment (or thought I was)-could sediment cause the mold?

What I hope to find out:

Have you ever batched a "moldy" brew, what happened?
Will it kill the alcohol content in the beer?
Could a beer just be sour and not because of mold?
For homebrewers with very very unsophisticated systems, how do you go about filtering your beer during a secondary transfer without oxidation?

 

[Jag75]

Not sure if the bag was the culprit. When I dry hop I use a paint strainer bag. I boil it the dunk in star San. I guess if you didnt clean the bag good enough you may have gotten some mold growth. As far as oxidation issues with ipa this is what I do and it may work for you or you may not like it . I dry hop on day 2 or 3 of fermentation. Then I do the second dry hop with the bag like I mentioned above . I use a fast fermenter so theres no moving my beer to a clean vessel. I just open the top drop in the bag of hops that has 2 shot glasses in it to weigh it down . In about 4 to 5 days later it pops up to the surface . Anytime I open the top to dry hop or add secondary ingredients I purge with co2.

Now if your using buckets just have a clean sanitized bucket ready put your dry hop in and put co2 in it through the airlock port then after about 20 seconds crack the lid a tad to allow o2 to be pushed out. If you have spouts on your stuff it makes closed transfers a breeze. So then you just connect a hose on your primary to your purged secondary and rack right onto your dry hop. I think it's almost impossible to be 100%o2 free but there are steps you can take to really minimize it. Check out closed transfers on this forum . I learned by looking @mongoose set up.

Also if your not dry hopping or adding secondary ingredients most people dont rack to a secondary anymore. To many problems to deal with if it's not needed. This is a really good place to learn .

 

[IslandLizard]

Can your friend send a picture to you?

A (clear) picture would really help to determine if it's indeed mold. Mold in beer is not common, but it can happen. Usually mold takes quite a bit longer to develop than other infections. Maybe it's a pellicle?

Your friend said the beer tastes sour. That points to a bacterial (or in some cases a wild yeast) infection. Pellicles are common with those. Molds do not make a beer sour.

Anything that touches your chilled wort and beer should be clean and sanitized. That regimen becomes 2nd nature after a while. As @Jag75 said, boiling the bag, especially with some PBW, 'Oxiclean,' Automatic dishwasher detergent, or even (common) washing soda, helps remove dirt and grime. Then a good rinse out to remove the alkaline detergent and a 3-5 minute soak in Starsan, agitate, squeeze the bag to get it thoroughly soaked through, a final squeeze and perhaps a shake out before it touches your (chilled) wort or beer.

Are you dry hopping in a keg? Is that your 'secondary?'
Secondaries are not really needed, and are often a cause of trouble, while they don't fix anything. If it's your serving keg, it's OK.

What kind of fermenter do you use? ==> OK, plastic bucket. You can dry hop in there.
Many of us do not use a bag for dry hopping, as it may limit permeation and thus flavor/aroma extraction.

 

[brewbama]

Does Star San kill mold spores?

 

[kh54s10]

In regards to sanitation:

I "Starsan" everything. If I have a contamination, I have no idea from where. Fermented in a plastic fermenter @about 16-17C for 12 days (was fine then), put it in the keg, buddy messaged me said it was "sour". He opened it up and said he saw mold floating. I didn't filter it but was careful not to take sediment (or thought I was)-could sediment cause the mold?

What I hope to find out:

Have you ever batched a "moldy" brew, what happened?
Will it kill the alcohol content in the beer?
Could a beer just be sour and not because of mold?
For homebrewers with very very unsophisticated systems, how do you go about filtering your beer during a secondary transfer without oxidation?

I personally have never had an infected or mold in my beer.
It will not affect the alcohol content, though you might not want to drink it - taste-wise.
You can get a sour taste (usually really something else) from different causes. An infection could be wild yeast, or a bacteria. Not necessarily mold.
I never filter my beer OR do a secondary.

In the beginning careful siphoning - no splashing, little to no air being introduced. Later co2 purging or closed transfers.

IMPORTANT. Everything that touches the beer after the boil must be clean and sanitized. If you did not sanitize the hop bag by at least soaking it in Starsan before putting it in the beer, that is probably the source of the problem.

But pictures: It might not be mold or an infection. In that case it would be a recipe or fermentation problem - probably temperature during fermentation.

 

[Jag75]

Is it in all the bottles your friend has ? If not maybe it's possible that the one bottle didnt get cleaned enough. If it had sat with a film of beer on the bottom it could have molded . Then when cleaned and sanitized its possible it got left behing in the bottom edge and then detached after a bit and floated to the top.

@IslandLizard , it's ok to boil with pbw ? I hadn't done that . I usually use really hot water . But a nice boil of water and splash of pbw for a muslin bag would be the extra umph to get it 100% clean . The material of those bags make it easy for bacteria to hide .

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard , it's ok to boil with pbw ? I hadn't done that . I usually use really hot water . But a nice boil of water and splash of pbw for a muslin bag would be the extra umph to get it 100% clean . The material of those bags make it easy for bacteria to hide .

Yes, you can surely boil PBW. You lose the oxygen component quickly, but what's leftover is an excellent cleaner. IMO, oxygen action is highly overrated, but it looks great on TV.

I use homemade PBW which runs ~$2.50 a pound that way.

Periodically I recirculate a rather strong solution of boiling PBW through my hoses, pump, plate chiller, whirlpool loop for a few hours. It really cleans thoroughly as the water is a brown as wort after a while. About every 6-10 brew days, or when I find it may be needed.

When PBW gets dissolved in water the oxygen component gets released, which helps in oxidizing and removing organic matter. Above 120-140F it fleets off rather quickly. What's left is a solution of Sodium Metasilicate and washing soda, with a high pH. It's an excellent cleaner, the metasilicate especially. I sometimes add some lye to it as well for extra umph.

I have used muslin bags, and they come out quite clean after boiling in PBW, but I mostly use tight woven nylon 'hop' bags now in the wort boil to keep hop matter out of the plate chiller. They take on a tenacious brown residue that gets boiled off in the PBW.

Per John Palmer: You cannot sanitize something that isn't clean in the first place [sic].

 

[Jag75]

My bags will be boiled in pbw from now on instead of just boiled .

 

[IslandLizard]

My bags will be boiled in pbw from now on instead of just boiled .

Good idea! The seams are most suspect to hold onto things.

After boil and rinse, I leave my nylon (boil hop) bags in a half bucket with Starsan between brews, which can be 1-4 weeks. They rarely get hung up and dried, but sometimes they do. The extended Starsan soak seems to remove the greenish hop tint they take on.

 

[RPh_Guy]

A (clear) picture would really help to determine if it's indeed mold. Mold in beer is not common, but it can happen. Usually mold takes quite a bit longer to develop than other infections. Maybe it's a pellicle?

Your friend said the beer tastes sour. That points to a bacterial (or in some cases a wild yeast) infection. Pellicles are common with those. Molds do not make a beer sour.

Nailed it!

Does Star San kill mold spores?

I don't believe so.

However...
Mold spores are everywhere, so any air exposure introduces the potential for mold growth.
Mold requires lots of oxygen to grow, so mold grow indicates a problem with the process (too oxygen exposure), not a problem with the sanitizer.

Per John Palmer: You cannot sanitize something that isn't clean in the first place [sic].

Off topic, but why the sic?

 

[IslandLizard]

Off topic, but why the sic?

Oops, that shouldn't have been there.