Mexican-style Vienna lager -- can I get a recipe sanity check?

[Horseflesh]

My goal is to make a Vienna lager inspired by Negra Modelo, though not necessarily an exact clone. I would appreciate any recipe feedback!

7 lbs Vienna 4L-6L (Skagit Valley) [MH] Grain 62.4 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Munich (Bestmalz) [MH] (6.3 SRM) Grain 24.5 %
1 lbs Corn, Yellow Flaked 1.3L (Briess) Grain 8.9 %
6.0 oz Caramel 60L (Briess) [MH] (60.0 S Grain 3.3 %
1.5 oz Wheat, Midnight 500L-600L (Briess Grain 0.8 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [4.30 %] Hop 60 min 14.4 IBUs
1.25 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [4.30 %] Hop 10 min 6.5 IBUs
Mash @ 152F
OG 1.051, IBU 21
Ferment with WLP 940, Mexican Lager (the Modelo strain)​

My reasoning for each grain:

- Mostly Vienna, because I want Vienna character to dominate (and my LHBS says our local Vienna malt is very good)
- A little Munich to add a little somethin' else, seems very common in this style
- Corn because it is common in dried-out Mexican lagers (though I think Modelo may actually use rice)
- A small amount of C60 to add a small residual sweetness, which I think is absent in Negra Modelo... but which I like in Modelo Especial. This also is apparently kosher for the style.
- A very small amount of Midnight Wheat just for color

Using C60 at all is my biggest uncertainty.

Should I do any kind of step mash? It's easy with my electric system.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[WestMichBrewer]

My goal is to make a Vienna lager inspired by Negra Modelo, though not necessarily an exact clone. I would appreciate any recipe feedback!

7 lbs Vienna 4L-6L (Skagit Valley) [MH] Grain 62.4 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Munich (Bestmalz) [MH] (6.3 SRM) Grain 24.5 %
1 lbs Corn, Yellow Flaked 1.3L (Briess) Grain 8.9 %
6.0 oz Caramel 60L (Briess) [MH] (60.0 S Grain 3.3 %
1.5 oz Wheat, Midnight 500L-600L (Briess Grain 0.8 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [4.30 %] Hop 60 min 14.4 IBUs
1.25 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [4.30 %] Hop 10 min 6.5 IBUs
Mash @ 152F
OG 1.051, IBU 21
Ferment with WLP 940, Mexican Lager (the Modelo strain)​

My reasoning for each grain:

- Mostly Vienna, because I want Vienna character to dominate (and my LHBS says our local Vienna malt is very good)
- A little Munich to add a little somethin' else, seems very common in this style
- Corn because it is common in dried-out Mexican lagers (though I think Modelo may actually use rice)
- A small amount of C60 to add a small residual sweetness, which I think is absent in Negra Modelo... but which I like in Modelo Especial. This also is apparently kosher for the style.
- A very small amount of Midnight Wheat just for color

Using C60 at all is my biggest uncertainty.

Should I do any kind of step mash? It's easy with my electric system.

Thanks for your feedback!

I'd say it looks interesting. Should be a good one.

I've brewed 3 different Viennas. The first had a bit of Carafa I in it for color. I was supposed to use the de-husked "special" version but got the regular and the roast note stuck out like a sore thumb, so personally I would eliminate the color addition, though I haven't used Midnight before so take that with a grain of salt.

Also I think I would swap the corn for rice. Corn has potential for some odd off-flavors, where rice is always a neutral body thinner that you are looking for.

The flavor/aroma hop addition may be a bit heavy if you are looking for the Vienna to dominate, but I assume you added this because you wanted to, so I won't say to remove it.

As for the crystal, I've used 1/2 lb CaraMunich I in a 3 gallon recipe to get a bit of sweetness. Your C60 addition should work for this too.

I'm anxious to hear how this goes...please keep us posted!

 

[Horseflesh]

Thanks for the feedback. After I posted that recipe I had second and third thoughts and ended up with the version below. It went in the fermenter yesterday and I will report back.

7 lbs Vienna (Bestmalz) [MH] (3.7 SRM) 61.2 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Munich (Bestmalz) [MH] (6.3 SRM) 24.0 %
1 lbs Corn, Yellow Flaked 1.3L (Briess) [MH] 8.7 %
6.0 oz Caramel 40L (Briess) [MH] (40.0 SRM) 3.3 %
3.0 oz Wheat, Midnight 500L-600L (Briess) [MH] 1.6 %
2.0 oz Carafa II 413L-450L (Weyermann) [MH] 1.1 %
0.85 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [4.30 %] - Boil Hop 60 min 12.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [2.70 %] - Boil Hop 60 min 4.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [2.70 %] - Boil Hop 10 min 3.2 IBUs

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 %
Bitterness: 19.9 IBUs
Est Color: 17.2 SRM
​

The crystal is for a tiny bit of residual sweetness, and I went down to C40 to err on the conservative side. The midnight wheat and Carafa II are primarily for color--we will see if they add too much roast flavor. I know from one past batch that midnight wheat's reputation for adding color without much flavor is deserved, maybe I should have used just that.

The general hopping advice I followed was this note from a pro brewer in a Vienna lager article I found: "I aim for around 20 IBUs for the finished beer, with 20% coming from the flavor addition." (There are 2 different kinds of hops at 60' only because I emptied one bag and switched the the new one.)

I did a protein rest at 133F for 15 minutes based on a discussion I saw @Yooper having in another thread. This may help with head retention.

I'll probably brew a revised version of this as soon as the first batch is done so I can reuse the yeast, because making a 2-step lager-sized starter is a pain. Maybe I will try rice next time, I was just too lazy to do a cereal mash on this round, but I still wanted a macro-brew style adjunct.

The wort looked and tasted good, now for the waiting...

 

[WestMichBrewer]

Thanks for the feedback. After I posted that recipe I had second and third thoughts and ended up with the version below. It went in the fermenter yesterday and I will report back.

7 lbs Vienna (Bestmalz) [MH] (3.7 SRM) 61.2 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Munich (Bestmalz) [MH] (6.3 SRM) 24.0 %
1 lbs Corn, Yellow Flaked 1.3L (Briess) [MH] 8.7 %
6.0 oz Caramel 40L (Briess) [MH] (40.0 SRM) 3.3 %
3.0 oz Wheat, Midnight 500L-600L (Briess) [MH] 1.6 %
2.0 oz Carafa II 413L-450L (Weyermann) [MH] 1.1 %
0.85 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [4.30 %] - Boil Hop 60 min 12.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [2.70 %] - Boil Hop 60 min 4.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [2.70 %] - Boil Hop 10 min 3.2 IBUs

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 %
Bitterness: 19.9 IBUs
Est Color: 17.2 SRM
​

The crystal is for a tiny bit of residual sweetness, and I went down to C40 to err on the conservative side. The midnight wheat and Carafa II are primarily for color--we will see if they add too much roast flavor. I know from one past batch that midnight wheat's reputation for adding color without much flavor is deserved, maybe I should have used just that.

The general hopping advice I followed was this note from a pro brewer in a Vienna lager article I found: "I aim for around 20 IBUs for the finished beer, with 20% coming from the flavor addition." (There are 2 different kinds of hops at 60' only because I emptied one bag and switched the the new one.)

I did a protein rest at 133F for 15 minutes based on a discussion I saw @Yooper having in another thread. This may help with head retention.

I'll probably brew a revised version of this as soon as the first batch is done so I can reuse the yeast, because making a 2-step lager-sized starter is a pain. Maybe I will try rice next time, I was just too lazy to do a cereal mash on this round, but I still wanted a macro-brew style adjunct.

The wort looked and tasted good, now for the waiting...

The waiting is always the worst part!
I looked at your original posting date after I replied and wondered if maybe I was too late...oh well.

Looking back at that older recipe, I had 3 oz of Carafa I in a 4-gallon recipe where it stuck out so...maybe 2 oz in a 5 gallon you won't notice it.

Flaked rice is available, but also I've read you can sub uncooked Minute Rice for flaked rice - either way you avoid a cereal mash.

 

[Horseflesh]

Minute Rice would be a good trick. I will look in to that!

 

[brewbama]

I am not a personal fan of rice or corn in my beers. I believe Mexican beer (like Amer light lager) uses rice and corn as an alternative to malt barley.

I just ordered the ingredients for my Cinco de Mayo beer using this article: https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-vienna-lager/

Cheers!

 

[Shawn3997]

Thanks for the feedback. After I posted that recipe I had second and third thoughts and ended up with the version below. It went in the fermenter yesterday and I will report back.

7 lbs Vienna (Bestmalz) [MH] (3.7 SRM) 61.2 %
2 lbs 12.0 oz Munich (Bestmalz) [MH] (6.3 SRM) 24.0 %
1 lbs Corn, Yellow Flaked 1.3L (Briess) [MH] 8.7 %
6.0 oz Caramel 40L (Briess) [MH] (40.0 SRM) 3.3 %
3.0 oz Wheat, Midnight 500L-600L (Briess) [MH] 1.6 %
2.0 oz Carafa II 413L-450L (Weyermann) [MH] 1.1 %
0.85 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [4.30 %] - Boil Hop 60 min 12.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [2.70 %] - Boil Hop 60 min 4.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh+ [2.70 %] - Boil Hop 10 min 3.2 IBUs

Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.2 %
Bitterness: 19.9 IBUs
Est Color: 17.2 SRM
​

The crystal is for a tiny bit of residual sweetness, and I went down to C40 to err on the conservative side. The midnight wheat and Carafa II are primarily for color--we will see if they add too much roast flavor. I know from one past batch that midnight wheat's reputation for adding color without much flavor is deserved, maybe I should have used just that.

The general hopping advice I followed was this note from a pro brewer in a Vienna lager article I found: "I aim for around 20 IBUs for the finished beer, with 20% coming from the flavor addition." (There are 2 different kinds of hops at 60' only because I emptied one bag and switched the the new one.)

I did a protein rest at 133F for 15 minutes based on a discussion I saw @Yooper having in another thread. This may help with head retention.

I'll probably brew a revised version of this as soon as the first batch is done so I can reuse the yeast, because making a 2-step lager-sized starter is a pain. Maybe I will try rice next time, I was just too lazy to do a cereal mash on this round, but I still wanted a macro-brew style adjunct.

The wort looked and tasted good, now for the waiting...

If I may inquire: Why the Midnight Wheat *and* the Carafa II?

 

[Horseflesh]

I am not a personal fan of rice or corn in my beers. I believe Mexican beer (like Amer light lager) uses rice and corn as an alternative to malt barley.

I just ordered the ingredients for my Cinco de Mayo beer using this article: https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-vienna-lager/
Cheers!

I didn't find that article before, thanks!

If I may inquire: Why the Midnight Wheat *and* the Carafa II?

I decided to use a small amount of Carafa II for color, plus a perhaps a little bit of flavor that doesn't edge into an off-style obvious roast note. Midnight Wheat is good for adding color with very little flavor addition, like Carafa dehusked malts, so it's there simply to darken the brew a bit more without risk of going further off-style in flavor. (I think a more conservative recipe might darken with all dehusked Carafa or all Midnight Wheat.)

That's the theory, anyway. This is all based on my interpretation of various things I've read in articles and forum threads. Some Vienna lagers even use mostly pils malt... This style seems to have a lot of variation.

As long as I get something tasty I'll be happy, then I can crack open some Modelo brews to compare and figure out what I want to do for the next batch. Maybe I will want to move closer to a clone, maybe I will deliberately go further off-style. With better weather approaching, all I know is I want a beer that goes with tacos on the patio.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

I didn't find that article before, thanks!



I decided to use a small amount of Carafa II for color, plus a perhaps a little bit of flavor that doesn't edge into an off-style obvious roast note. Midnight Wheat is good for adding color with very little flavor addition, like Carafa dehusked malts, so it's there simply to darken the brew a bit more without risk of going further off-style in flavor. (I think a more conservative recipe might darken with all dehusked Carafa or all Midnight Wheat.)

That's the theory, anyway. This is all based on my interpretation of various things I've read in articles and forum threads. Some Vienna lagers even use mostly pils malt... This style seems to have a lot of variation.

As long as I get something tasty I'll be happy, then I can crack open some Modelo brews to compare and figure out what I want to do for the next batch. Maybe I will want to move closer to a clone, maybe I will deliberately go further off-style. With better weather approaching, all I know is I want a beer that goes with tacos on the patio.

Been a while, but how did it come out? I brewed another vienna a few weeks ago and am lagering it now.

 

[Horseflesh]

Thanks for the reminder to update.

It was hard for me to evaluate fairly because I pooched the lager fermentation and got some off flavors. But in general, I think the c40 was a mistake, too much caramel flavor even in that small amount.

It was also too dark, more like a dunkel.

I couldn’t really tell if I gained anything from the combo of Carafa II and Midnight Wheat.

It was an over-thought, misunderstood recipe followed by a bungled fermentation.

I laughed, I cried, I learned a lot.

Next time, less is more.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

Thanks for the reminder to update.

It was hard for me to evaluate fairly because I pooched the lager fermentation and got some off flavors. But in general, I think the c40 was a mistake, too much caramel flavor even in that small amount.

It was also too dark, more like a dunkel.

I couldn’t really tell if I gained anything from the combo of Carafa II and Midnight Wheat.

It was an over-thought, misunderstood recipe followed by a bungled fermentation.

I laughed, I cried, I learned a lot.

Next time, less is more.

And in the end you still had beer, so there are worse things!
My simple recipe (currently) is 90.2% Vienna, 7.8% CaraMunich I and 2% Acid malt.
Didn't produce much sweetness last time, so we'll see what it's like this time after more lagering.
I used WY Munich Lager yeast at ~57F this time (found the lower limits of my temp chamber) where before I have also used 34/70.

 

[Horseflesh]

My next lager attempt after this bust was a simple Czech pils with 34/70 and it was fantastic. I really want to use the Modelo strain in another Mexican adjunct lager because it would be cool... but making a multi-step starter is no fun. I will probably stick with 34/70 for a while.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

My next lager attempt after this bust was a simple Czech pils with 34/70 and it was fantastic. I really want to use the Modelo strain in another Mexican adjunct lager because it would be cool... but making a multi-step starter is no fun. I will probably stick with 34/70 for a while.

I am a fan of the Mexican Vienna lagers as well. I planned on using the WY 2005 Cerveza Mexican Lager yeast with my current batch but they didn't have it in stock when I went to the LHBS, so I ended up with WY Munich Lager. Also a fine yeast, but I was bummed.
I also use 34/70 a lot and have used it sucessfully with this Vienna recipe.

 

[WestMichBrewer]

I am a fan of the Mexican Vienna lagers as well. I planned on using the WY 2005 Cerveza Mexican Lager yeast with my current batch but they didn't have it in stock when I went to the LHBS, so I ended up with WY Munich Lager. Also a fine yeast, but I was bummed.
I also use 34/70 a lot and have used it sucessfully with this Vienna recipe.

Just tapped this latest batch of Vienna...awesome...just not similar to the Cervezas.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

My Vienna Lagers are nothing like Mexi-lagers, but that's good. I think they are more like authentic Vienna lagers should be/once were.
They're also, to echo a previous poster, better with a simple grain bill, and there is no need for exotic specialty grains.