Yeast immobilization: magic beans of fermentation

[passedpawn]

Consider the attached diagram

1) Fermenter with two hose barb attachment and airlock
2) peristaltic pump sized to provide calculated flow and pressure to 3-5
3) column with alpha amylase beads
4) column with beta galactosidase
5) column with yeast beads

-- column dimensions based on contact time, reaction rate, ability of beads to withstand flow stresses

Optional inline columns: filtering, nutrient, dry hop column, or maybe even a UV disinfection column.

Thought experiment -- if a combination of flow and column dimensions allow for a single pass, is it possible to produce a continuous flow of beer at the end of the process. This may require maintaining a volume in the 1st tank between a certain minimum/maximum level through periodic additions of fresh wort. Potential advantages to continuously brewed beer are the reduction or process down-time and cost of sanitation, a consistency of beer over a long period of time...

Just spit balling here...

I wonder what problems will occur with all of the CO2 evolving. Still, I love the idea you propose. It gets my gears spinning.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

I wonder what problems will occur with all of the CO2 evolving. Still, I love the idea you propose. It gets my gears spinning.

You should be able to regulate pressure with a spunding valve. Not sure about pockets of CO2 collecting though. If the CO2 doesn't escape efficiently, there could be some foaming issues and inconsistent contact times depending on flow rate.

 

[pickles]

I like where you're going with this, but I do wonder, where is the new starch being introduced? You've eliminated the need to mash with the columns, but you still need an efficient way to get starch out of the malt.

I appears he's adding wort to the system. I'm not sure where you getting the circumventing of mashing?

 

[edds5p0]

I appears he's adding wort to the system. I'm not sure where you getting the circumventing of mashing?

Since amylases catalyze the hydrolysis of starches, I am assuming that is what the amylase columns are intended for.

 

[Norselord]

Since amylases catalyze the hydrolysis of starches, I am assuming that is what the amylase columns are intended for.

The enzymes are for improving yield and reducing fermentation time...this is mostly based on industrial ethanol production. The columns are merely intended to show the possibilty of stages. They do not need to be packed...they could represent different temperature profiles, or ph profiles.

The initial tank would require charging with wort...not taking mahing out of the equation.

 

[Norselord]

Also each column could represent a different strain of yeast, cooling coils could be used to optimize solution temp to ideal yeast activity range...possibilties abound.

One of the main benefits to immobilization is the improvement of the robustness of the entrapped biology. The survivability of the immobilized yeasts at higher alcohol concentrations may be possible.

 

[Norselord]

I wonder what problems will occur with all of the CO2 evolving. Still, I love the idea you propose. It gets my gears spinning.

Stages for co2 release or adsorption can be included.

Personally i like the potential modularity of the process!

 

[Norselord]

Quick! Someone patent the inline dry-hop column...don't think that process patent has been claimed!

 

[thatjonguy]

What about using nitrogen to push the beer around? Assuming you don't want to force carb at the same time.

 

[Norselord]

What about using nitrogen to push the beer around? Assuming you don't want to force carb at the same time.

Forcecarbing by definition means carbon dioxide, which forms carboxyllic acid, at STP N2 shouldn't affect the process. Question is: how much gas, at what cost, and at whatntemp?

 

[thatjonguy]

Forcecarbing by definition means carbon dioxide, which forms carboxyllic acid, at STP N2 shouldn't affect the process. Question is: how much gas, at what cost, and at whatntemp?

I should have worded that better. If one were to use CO2 to push it around wouldn't there be a risk of overcarbing?

 

[emjay]

Forcecarbing by definition means carbon dioxide, which forms carboxyllic acid, at STP N2 shouldn't affect the process. Question is: how much gas, at what cost, and at whatntemp?

Dissolved carbon dioxide creates carbonic acid, not carboxylic.

I should have worded that better. If one were to use CO2 to push it around wouldn't there be a risk of overcarbing?

It depends entirely on what the overall system pressure is. Something like a spunding valve will bleed any excess pressure (and thus CO2) out into the room.

 

[Norselord]

Dissolved carbon dioxide creates carbonic acid, not carboxylic.


It depends entirely on what the overall system pressure is. Something like a spunding valve will bleed any excess pressure (and thus CO2) out into the room.

I stand corrected -- the way to get carboxyic acid into your beer is to let it oxidize.

 

[DPBISME]

Sub-ed...

 

[crushingblackdoom]

Hey MalFet, any tasting notes yet?
Proud of your work! Looking forward to finished product evaluations...

Definately the most interesting thread I've read on HBT for a while. I can see this becoming a new branch on the home brewer's
MacGuyver Tree of Brilliance & (not so brilliant).

 

[MalFet]

Hey MalFet, any tasting notes yet?
Proud of your work! Looking forward to finished product evaluations...

Yep! Check out post #199.

 

[brant740]

Since the yeast beads will not add much flavor I was thinking about making beads of turbo yeast to add after the initial growth period of the primary bead-less yeast. Would this allow the flavors we want from the yeast plus rapid cleanup an maturation of the beer?

Edit: Just remembered turbo yeast wouldnt stop at the same point as the other yeast so it would probably end up dryer than desired.

 

[MalFet]

Since the yeast beads will not add much flavor I was thinking about making beads of turbo yeast to add after the initial growth period of the primary bead-less yeast. Would this allow the flavors we want from the yeast plus rapid cleanup an maturation of the beer?

For what it's worth, I don't actually agree with the idea that the use of beads removes all yeast character from the equation, and I think my experimental results demonstrate that. Certainly it's different than a baseline ferment, but it's not non-existent.

 

[brant740]

For what it's worth, I don't actually agree with the idea that the use of beads removes all yeast character from the equation, and I think my experimental results demonstrate that. Certainly it's different than a baseline ferment, but it's not non-existent.

Didn't you have some hitch hikers in that batch? Have you reused the beads yet?

 

[MalFet]

Didn't you have some hitch hikers in that batch? Have you reused the beads yet?

I've done a few parallel batches in different arrangements now, though nothing comprehensive yet. In my opinion, it's much too early to be making many conclusions.

 

[MidgymanEH]

Awesome. This looks like something I will have to try! As if I don't have enough projects as it is haha. If/Once I do, I will post results as well, to add to the information you are compiling. Thank you for sharing your experiment/notes/ideas. Great thread.

 

[sivrat]

sub'd

 

[brant740]

Any updates on additional batches?

 

[GrogNerd]

one of the guys just friggin disappeared, so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

 

[TANSTAAFB]

one of the guys just friggin disappeared, so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

Epic...

 

[hunter_le five]

....so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

I always feared this day would come....

I'd better finish my beer before it has a chance to turn on me.

 

[boydster]

one of the guys just friggin disappeared, so we're going on the presumption that bean beer gained sentience and devoured him

I have insider information that it wasn't the bean beer. It was actually the beer bean. Damn critters are ruthless.

 

[GrogNerd]

gak! I mixed up this thread with the fermenting lentil bean thread

mea culpa

 

[MalFet]

Fear not! This process is guaranteed to not spawn sentience. Your children, pets, and religious convictions are safe.

Not much to report, I'm afraid! I just finished another batch, and the good news/bad news is that the results were essentially identical. This time I gave the beads a good solid wash in StarSan, and there was no rebellion/krausen from escapees.

Unfortunately, I'm going to be on the road for a while now, so my experiments are temporarily on hold. I'll be monitoring this thread while I'm gone, though, so I hope others will chime in with their experiences. I know at least a couple of batches were in the works.

 

[boydster]

Fear not! This process is guaranteed to not spawn sentience. Your children, pets, and religious convictions are safe.

ZOMBIE! ...err I mean, great to hear from you, MalFet. I will be making some of these magic beans in the next few weeks I think and look forward to adding to the collective experiment.

 

[Hermit]

Unfortunately, I'm going to be on the road for a while now, so my experiments are temporarily on hold. I'll be monitoring this thread while I'm gone, though, so I hope others will chime in with their experiences. I know at least a couple of batches were in the works.

So, you gonna do an aging experiment then? See how long they last? Maybe drop them in some glycerin solution?

 

[MalFet]

So, you gonna do an aging experiment then? See how long they last? Maybe drop them in some glycerin solution?

Interesting thought! They'd be sitting in non-climate controlled storage locker for upwards of two years. I'm terrified to think what I'd find when I came back.

 

[Hermit]

Interesting thought! They'd be sitting in non-climate controlled storage locker for upwards of two years. I'm terrified to think what I'd find when I came back.

I was thinking more like a deep freeze, but it's your call. Now I'll bet you are really sorry for not adding the bio luminescence factor.

 

[GrogNerd]

I was thinking more like a deep freeze, but it's your call. Now I'll bet you are really sorry for not adding the bio luminescence factor.

glowing zombie beer beans

you are just asking for trouble

 

[BBL_Brewer]

I'd like to try and make a mild sour sometime using immobilization. passedpawn's idea. Couple of questions though. To eliminate free rangers, would a star san rinse be ok? I'm not sure that would be a good idea with bacteria. If not, I could try the encapsulation technique. Secondly, I'm assuming the best time to add them would be after primary? I'm thinking wait until the krausen falls and then add the beans. Sample every few days until desired tartness is achieved and then rack to secondary. Thoughts? I've never made a sour before. I tried one, liked the taste, but it was way too tart for me.

 

[Hermit]

I'd like to try and make a mild sour sometime using immobilization. passedpawn's idea. Couple of questions though. To eliminate free rangers, would a star san rinse be ok? I'm not sure that would be a good idea with bacteria. If not, I could try the encapsulation technique. Secondly, I'm assuming the best time to add them would be after primary? I'm thinking wait until the krausen falls and then add the beans. Sample every few days until desired tartness is achieved and then rack to secondary. Thoughts? I've never made a sour before. I tried one, liked the taste, but it was way too tart for me.

Interesting idea. I'd have some sterile water handy before the star san dip to plunge the beans into after the Starsan dip. I just don't know how quick the Starsan would permeate the beans. But if you killed all but the most interior bacteria this would only slow down the souring which would be good in your case.

Some of my reading though indicates the 'tame' stuff is different from the 'wild' stuff and eats most of the same sugars so that if you get them in too late you just don't get much sour.

 

[Accidic]

The bead batch was clean and firmly bitter, but not at all flavorless. At risk of oversimplifying, it tasted like perfectly competent California Pale Ale (minus the late hop character).

Pre-emptively let me point out two things... 1) This is a pretty awesome thread/experiment and 2) I haven't made it much past this particular post so if what I am about to ask is redundant and dumb I apologize but I didn't want to forget my question.

The above disclaimer stated, in the example batch you produced you used Calcium Chloride unless my recollection is failing me entirely. There are a few other Calcium based options (Calcium Lactate comes to mind). While I realize the bitter taste experienced with some of the items we made with Calcium Chloride was tethered to the consumption of the entire "bean," I kind of wonder if it could be the same type of bitterness you got above as a result of the components used. On the other hand, as you said, some flavor preferences might prefer that more bitter taste (was it perceived as hop bitterness when it was partially related to this for example). I'm certainly no chemist in any event by any means and only am roughly familiar with the process as I did it with the original type recipe when making food with the daughter and we didn't like the bitterness it created but after talking to the guy at the store we got the poweder, switching to the Lactate solution instead it eliminated most all of the bitter taste. I'm sure there are other options as well but that's the only one I know of.

 

[Accidic]

Oh, and the other question I meant to ask that I didn't spot in the thread so far... Do you let them further solidify before use or leave them not "turned" for lack of a better word on the inside portion or am I missing something?

 

[chipsmcghee]

Finding this thread is like the first time I touched a boob. Please keep us posted. Amazing!

 

[brant740]

Finding this thread is like the first time I touched a boob. Please keep us posted. Amazing!

Lol