filtered water undrinkable after mineral addition.

[hunmojo]

Hey guys,

well i just installed my water filter. its pretty much takes out all ions. so imleft with almost distilled water. its not an ro unit. its by a company called BWT.

the water tastes fine when i got it out of the filter. But when i added the minerals to it and tried a sip, it tasted AWFUL!!!

i used a base water profile of close to 0 all around. and added gypsum, epsomsalt, and calciumcloride, to get a water profile of 55 calcium , 75 sulfate, 60 chloride, 5 magnesium and 0 bicarbonate.

i mixed in the salts to my water and it tasted undrinkable. is this NORMAL>>>

i always hear people say if it tastes good you can brew with it......but its the opposite affect here.

I did test for calcium and its spot on, so im assuming my other aditions were right as well. (i cant test for those)....


any input.much appreciated.

 

[GASoline71]

Epsom salts taste like crap... don't ask me how I know.

Did you try to brew at all with the tap water before the filtering process? The reason I ask is because I thought I was going to need to filter the water at my new place. But tried a batch of beer with the tap water, and it turned out just fine. So have the last 5 batches with unfiltered tap water... just sayin'...

Gary

 

[duboman]

Drinking your tap water and drinking modified water brewing is not the same thing I'm not surprised it tasted awful. But.....if you added the right amounts of things the beer should be great!

 

[Yooper]

I'm not familiar with that water filter at all- but how can you get "almost distilled" water out of it if it's not via RO and just filtering. Are you 100% sure all the numbers (calcium, magnesium, sulfate, chloride, sodium, alkalinity, etc) are at or near 0?

I read a bit on that filter on their website, and it talks about adding magnesium to the water. If that's the case, you certainly don't want to add epsom salts to your brewing water! Magnesium causes a "sour" flavor in beer, and in large amounts causes a laxative effect.

It also says it "removes limescale" but really nothing else.

I think that to get "almost distilled" water by adding magnesium is a lot of baloney, and I don't see that claim at all on their website but I just took a quick glance.'

In fact, their website actually says exactly the opposite: In contrast to water from other table water filters, BWT filtered water contains a high level of concentrated minerals and therefore flavour carriers thanks to the Mg2+ technology!

A "high level of concentrated minerals" is the exact opposite of distilled water.

 

[mot]

Did you have your water tested to prove that you are near 0 for everything?

As others have stated filters usually filter chlorine and some other things but won't give you RO water so a lot of your minerals will stay in tact.

 

[BigRob]

This product page is full of slick graphics and whatnot, but the actual information about their filter technology seems very sparse. If the water tastes terrible, the beer is going to be pretty awful too.

 

[hunmojo]

sorry guys for the late reply....

yes this filter company leaves a lot of questions i had to go in and talk to them in person..

each filter is designed to do something else. what I have got was the best CLEAR EXTRA which is a complete ion remover. other filters only soften or do other stuff like add mg( thats for coffee machines).

My TDS meter even at home reads 0.

the taste is metalic....by the way

my biggest concern when I opted for one of these filters was that i did not want MG additions, or excess sodium that regular ion exchangers give off. I specifically asked them, that is why they recomended this bestCLEAR EXTRA>>> and on the website there is an error for this filter, as it does not add MG and Ca back into you filtered water.
HOWEVER___ after being mislead and buying the system, I installed it and read in the manual, it does sate that a "small" amount of sodium is added. This must be quite small because like I said my tds meter does not register anything...

Here are my concerns with this system. According to the manual, If I do not use the filter for longer than 2 days, I have to flush it out before the next use with 5L of water. Because I use this for brewing it just sits around for a couple of days so I do flush the filter. When I do this, the first water that comes out is darn right STINKY!!!! it smells like rotten sea water.. you know....But after a good flush I get nice clear water... this may reinforce the fact that there is the sodium additions, but its very small.

So- I took home 30Liters of filtered water, pluged it in as 0 all around. and added 3g of gypsum, 1.5g epsom salt, and 3.5g calcium. for a total calculated values of 55ca, mg 5, so4 75, cl 60, roughly...

I wanted to check if everything dissolved, so I tested for calcium and hardness, (aquarium test kits) and i did read calcium righ on spot and hardness was around 0, or very low....for the home test

so now the biggest give away is the metalic taste...
I was going to brew today with this water but now im re-considering it.
I think im going to go with the filtered water and regular tap water 50/50. and not add anything... till i get another water test not from the company.....

 

[hunmojo]

UPDATE.
i decided to experiment, and took 3 wine glasses filled them up with the filtered water and added a small amount to each epsom salt, gypsum, and cacl. to see maybe one of these additions made my water taste bad, the wine glasses had way more concentrated additions than my 30l so I would be sure to taste something... to my surprise none of them tasted like my mixed 30L each had its own flavor but not that metallic awful taste i got in my big batch.
Now im thinking that the taste may have come from my plastic 30L bucket i used to mix everything in. it cant be anything else...well i did warm up a bit of water in a SS pot to better dissolve the minerals first... but i highly doubt that's it.

 

[Yooper]

UPDATE.
i decided to experiment, and took 3 wine glasses filled them up with the filtered water and added a small amount to each epsom salt, gypsum, and cacl. to see maybe one of these additions made my water taste bad, the wine glasses had way more concentrated additions than my 30l so I would be sure to taste something... to my surprise none of them tasted like my mixed 30L each had its own flavor but not that metallic awful taste i got in my big batch.
Now im thinking that the taste may have come from my plastic 30L bucket i used to mix everything in. it cant be anything else...well i did warm up a bit of water in a SS pot to better dissolve the minerals first... but i highly doubt that's it.

I have no idea, I'm sorry!

Ideally you'd have RO or distilled water to start with, and if the TDS is measuring 0 that's a great sign that it is.

But that "bad flavor" worries me, that's for sure. The water should taste like, well, water. I'm no water expert, but I can't guess where the metallic flavor is coming from.

 

[cluckk]

UPDATE.
i decided to experiment, and took 3 wine glasses filled them up with the filtered water and added a small amount to each epsom salt, gypsum, and cacl. to see maybe one of these additions made my water taste bad, the wine glasses had way more concentrated additions than my 30l so I would be sure to taste something... to my surprise none of them tasted like my mixed 30L each had its own flavor but not that metallic awful taste i got in my big batch.
Now im thinking that the taste may have come from my plastic 30L bucket i used to mix everything in. it cant be anything else...well i did warm up a bit of water in a SS pot to better dissolve the minerals first... but i highly doubt that's it.

I'm no water expert (but I play one on the internet). I like the attempt to isolate the salts for taste. However, did you try blending the water from the glasses to see if the combination is being perceived as this taste? While I haven't seen this with water additions, I have seen such perceptions with spices while cooking--two spices when blended in one dish causing a taste unlikr either alone. I'd try this next: three samples A,B and C then blended AB, AC, BC, and ABC. This is the only thing I can think of.

 

[hunmojo]

thans for the input guys. i went ahead and gotten another 30L of water for brewing from the filter, i added same salt additions, this time no bad taste...
dont know what happened, well see how the brew turns out.
have you guys check out the BWT filters , what do you guys think. im going to get full confirmation on these. once i get proper lab test, if they seem good to go it might be better than ro water.... since you dont need a reservoir. i think illstart a new thread for that project.

 

[Yooper]

thans for the input guys. i went ahead and gotten another 30L of water for brewing from the filter, i added same salt additions, this time no bad taste...
dont know what happened, well see how the brew turns out.
have you guys check out the BWT filters , what do you guys think. im going to get full confirmation on these. once i get proper lab test, if they seem good to go it might be better than ro water.... since you dont need a reservoir. i think illstart a new thread for that project.

I have an RO machine. I bought it a while ago, just for brewing. It doesn't have a pressure tank or anything- I just drain it into my HLT or a big bucket. It was expensive, though- it was about $120. I haven't changed any filters or anything yet, and it's still working great. There is a lot of waste water with an RO machine- about 5 to 1, I think.

 

[hunmojo]

yea my point actually not the pressure tank. maybe thats just one version, but if all works well with this filter then it might be a great alternative to conventional ro filters. becuase there is no waste, (well just the 5-10l water you flush the filter with before a brew day,....

 

[hunmojo]

ok guys the results are in. thank you for your help by the way. i managed to get my brew done.

OK so the BWT filter I have is the Bestmax clear EXTRA, its supposed to get rid of all ions....
there are 2 setting on this filter.
0= complete filtration
1= lets somewhere around 10% tap water through and is mixed with the filtered water when it comes out.(however it does still go through a charcoal filtration, so its nice and clean,,


i got a water test, and these are the numbers..

with bypass setting 0 =
hco3- not possible due to low ph....
calcium- <1 mg/l
mg - <1 mg/l
sodium - <1 mg/l
cl - <1 mg/l
s04- 3.7 gm/l
PH 4.11

bypass setting 1=
hc03- 18.3gm/l
calcium- <1 mg/l
mg - <1 mg/l
sodium - <1 mg/l
cl - 1.9 mg/l
s04- 2.6 mg/l
PH- 7.23

All in all im happy wih these tests, but looks like im going to have to use bypass setting 1 because of the low ph with the setting 0.

these tests indicate an error possibility of about +-5%.

given these numbers Im fully happy with the filter capabilities,
in fact i might be able to go for the bestmax clear...not the EXTRA>>>>

wich filters a little less, but gives me a total usage (life span of the filter of 9000L as opposed to the EXTRA which I have and only able to filter for 2500L.

this sound like the go to filter for home brewers, because there is NO waste water. i get a discount on the filter so it comes out to be about 180$.

thats 180$ for 2500L of water... or with the other filter same price 9000L of water, (just less filtration, someone told me that that filter leaves about 150ppm on a TDS test...thats still pretty clean water....

any thoughts guys...
what do you think...
interests.

 

[mot]

ok guys the results are in. thank you for your help by the way. i managed to get my brew done.

OK so the BWT filter I have is the Bestmax clear EXTRA, its supposed to get rid of all ions....
there are 2 setting on this filter.
0= complete filtration
1= lets somewhere around 10% tap water through and is mixed with the filtered water when it comes out.(however it does still go through a charcoal filtration, so its nice and clean,,


i got a water test, and these are the numbers..

with bypass setting 0 =
hco3- not possible due to low ph....
calcium- <1 mg/l
mg - <1 mg/l
sodium - <1 mg/l
cl - <1 mg/l
s04- 3.7 gm/l
PH 4.11

bypass setting 1=
hc03- 18.3gm/l
calcium- <1 mg/l
mg - <1 mg/l
sodium - <1 mg/l
cl - 1.9 mg/l
s04- 2.6 mg/l
PH- 7.23

All in all im happy wih these tests, but looks like im going to have to use bypass setting 1 because of the low ph with the setting 0.

these tests indicate an error possibility of about +-5%.

given these numbers Im fully happy with the filter capabilities,
in fact i might be able to go for the bestmax clear...not the EXTRA>>>>

wich filters a little less, but gives me a total usage (life span of the filter of 9000L as opposed to the EXTRA which I have and only able to filter for 2500L.

this sound like the go to filter for home brewers, because there is NO waste water. i get a discount on the filter so it comes out to be about 180$.

thats 180$ for 2500L of water... or with the other filter same price 9000L of water, (just less filtration, someone told me that that filter leaves about 150ppm on a TDS test...thats still pretty clean water....

any thoughts guys...
what do you think...
interests.

where did you get your test done? Ward labs is not getting you results that fast

there are portable 3 filter RO untis for about 120 bucks

 

[hunmojo]

i took it to the city water lab, to get it tested.

I know its not cheap and there are less expensive ro units out there, but there is no waste water here....

and lets not forget that i opted for the most expensive filter...
these filters are ingeniously designed, with the bypass settings, you can have multiple types of water profiles.

next time ill get a lesser filter and im sure itl still be good enough to come close to ro quality. iv never owned an ro unit... i don know how fast the water comes out. but with this it flows just like a simple tap... works like a charm.

 

[mot]

Not sure what you mean by no waste. The one I am talking about doesn't waste anything. Trusting your filter on different water profiles would not be a great option

 

[hunmojo]

waste i was thinking the ro units like above stated are 5-1. i didnt mean to brew with that water only. just if my filter lets a some water through that's easier to work with for a dark beer, not have add too many salts..
ne way i guess, inst as attractive to others as it was for me....

 

[mot]

waste i was thinking the ro units like above stated are 5-1. i didnt mean to brew with that water only. just if my filter lets a some water through that's easier to work with for a dark beer, not have add too many salts..
ne way i guess, inst as attractive to others as it was for me....

You would have no way to know your water profile when letting regular tap water in the mix.

 

[Ryush806]

You would have no way to know your water profile when letting regular tap water in the mix.

You would if you got it tested and knew the ratio. I think the filter sounds pretty cool.

 

[mot]

You would if you got it tested and knew the ratio. I think the filter sounds pretty cool.

Sure spend enough on tests to figure all that out and that will work for a short period then when the filter starts to go...if it was that easy it would be adopted by breweries

 

[LovesIPA]

I recently started using purified water. I bought three five-gallon drinking water jugs from wal-mart, the ones you would use on a water cooler. I fill them at the grocery store on the corner for $1.25 from a Glacier water vending machine.

Yes, I know the water doesn't come from a glacier. It's purified city water but my light beers come out tasting MUCH better.

 

[Ryush806]

Sure spend enough on tests to figure all that out and that will work for a short period then when the filter starts to go...if it was that easy it would be adopted by breweries

I always love the argument "if it were that easy..." That's exactly how you kill any kind of innovation. Any person who has ever tried to advanced technology was told that. The ones that ignored that advice actually made a difference.

Not that this filter is necessarily going to work, but to write it off because no one uses it yet is just ignorant unless you have looked into the issue, run experiments, and came to a scientific conclusion about its feasibility.

You could easily get a hand held TDS meter to monitor levels to see when the filter goes. Perfect? No. Acceptable for a production brewery? Probably not but you never know. Fine for us homebrewers? I bet it could be.

 

[mot]

I always love the argument "if it were that easy..." That's exactly how you kill any kind of innovation. Any person who has ever tried to advanced technology was told that. The ones that ignored that advice actually made a difference.

Not that this filter is necessarily going to work, but to write it off because no one uses it yet is just ignorant unless you have looked into the issue, run experiments, and came to a scientific conclusion about its feasibility.

You could easily get a hand held TDS meter to monitor levels to see when the filter goes. Perfect? No. Acceptable for a production brewery? Probably not but you never know. Fine for us homebrewers? I bet it could be.

I did come to a conclusion on its feasability...you would have to run tons of tests for each mixture of regular tap water to filtered water, almost infinate combinations, right there thats not feasable at 20-30 bucks a test. Even if you go buy the equipment to do test yourself and keeping them buffered properly.
I am not killing any innovation thats just ridiculous

 

[Ryush806]

I did come to a conclusion on its feasability...you would have to run tons of tests for each mixture of regular tap water to filtered water, almost infinate combinations, right there thats not feasable at 20-30 bucks a test. Even if you go buy the equipment to do test yourself and keeping them buffered properly.
I am not killing any innovation thats just ridiculous

By running two tests to see what your tap water runs and what your filtered water runs you could easily estimate the ion concentration. There's no complex chemistry going on. Just dilution calculations. Using a handheld TDS meter you could monitor for any signs of filter failure. It won't be exact but it doesn't have to be.

 

[ACbrewer]

ok guys the results are in. thank you for your help by the way. i managed to get my brew done.


with bypass setting 0 =
hco3- not possible due to low ph....
calcium- <1 mg/l
mg - <1 mg/l
sodium - <1 mg/l
cl - <1 mg/l
s04- 3.7 gm/l
PH 4.11

bypass setting 1=
hc03- 18.3gm/l
calcium- <1 mg/l
mg - <1 mg/l
sodium - <1 mg/l
cl - 1.9 mg/l
s04- 2.6 mg/l
PH- 7.23

Any thoughts guys...
what do you think...
interests.

I can't talk about the salts directly, but the ph has me baffled. With almost no salts, the first one should come out 7, or very close, instead you have a 4.11. Either there are a lot of other disovled materials, or the sO4 can really move the maker.

To me the 'purer water' should have less salts, but that is just my thinking on the definition. I'm not saying that the filter is bad or your results are bad btw, just odd to me.

EDIT:
ok, missed units that it is grams/liter of SO4, not micro grams per liter, so that is a lot of salt, which brings back my question of 'and this is more pure?' I will grant that a high level of acidity will keep the water better than a neutral level so that could be a design feature, especially since I think SO4 disapates over time - isn't it SO4 in Meta bi sulfate? It could also account for your smells. I do question the source. ( is it natural, or how the filter works?)

 

[mot]

I can't talk about the salts directly, but the ph has me baffled. With almost no salts, the first one should come out 7, or very close, instead you have a 4.11. Either there are a lot of other disovled materials, or the sO4 can really move the maker.

To me the 'purer water' should have less salts, but that is just my thinking on the definition. I'm not saying that the filter is bad or your results are bad btw, just odd to me.

yep and to get that ph back into somewhat normal range you would be using way to many salts to even get close.

 

[Yooper]

I

EDIT:
ok, missed units that it is grams/liter of SO4, not micro grams per liter, so that is a lot of salt, which brings back my question of 'and this is more pure?' I will grant that a high level of acidity will keep the water better than a neutral level so that could be a design feature, especially since I think SO4 disapates over time - isn't it SO4 in Meta bi sulfate? It could also account for your smells. I do question the source. ( is it natural, or how the filter works?)

No. S04 is sulfate. Potassium metabisulfite is a whole different compound. S04 won't dissipate.

The pH has me baffled as well. It's very very acidic. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm no hydrologist.

 

[ACbrewer]

No. S04 is sulfate. Potassium metabisulfite is a whole different compound. S04 won't dissipate.

The pH has me baffled as well. It's very very acidic. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm no hydrologist.

Thanks Yooper, gald to know that I wasn't the only one, and thanks for catching my confussion of sulfite v sulfate. I know the difference when I see them, but without the bottle infront of me, I often forget if it is a -ite or -ate.

the level of the acid makes sense to me given it is grams per liter (aka parts per thousand), BUT the source has me baffled.

 

[azeeb]

pH isn't really relevent when you are talking about water that has virtually no minerals in it. The pH meter used to do the testing probably isn't capable of making an accurate measurement in water with no ions in it. There is literally no buffer, so the pH can drift all over the place. The tiniest amount of mineral addition, or even CO2 dissolving into the water from the air will swing the pH a significant amount.

 

[azeeb]

yep and to get that ph back into somewhat normal range you would be using way to many salts to even get close.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? pH of the source water doesn't make any difference, only the pH of the mash.

 

[Leithoa]

@azeeb I think they were talking about one of the filter options earlier in the thread that output wildly different pH's depending on the setting. The pH can influence solubility of salts you're adding back but I think for brewing purposes it won't change noticeably.

@Acbrewer it's not sulfite v sulfate, the whole anion is metabisulfate

 

[hunmojo]

I'm happy to see people getting into this thread. Would love to come across someone else who has seen or used something like this...
Guys, when I first went into the company office I told them that I need a filter for brewing beer. They told me that they have worked with several large breweries and installed filters for them. They told me that the filters that they recommended was the best max line, which removes carbonates but leaves the other minerals mostly in the water.
I told them for home use I would prefer something close to ro water quality so I can add my own salts. So that's why they recommended the filter I got. The best max clear extra.

Each filter you get comes with a filter head, that is universal and fits all filters in the line.. The difference bypass settings are from 0. To 3 setting. It's the filter itself that is pre determined which setting you can use...
For example my filter is only equipped to be able to work with bypass setting 0 and 1. Another filter that is for say just purifying drinking water can be set to all 4 settings. The settings are recommended based on you water hardness. So if you have soft water you dont need to set the filter to 0 for extreme filtration because you are putting unnecessary strain on you filter. So instead of say 9000 liters of its life you only get 3000
As you guys have seen the tests the two settings are different. This is a pretty extreme filter so the two settings don't really vary that much. Because thefilter is designed to get close to total filtration. But on a different filter you could have a lot of different water profiles. For example I the bar I work with which uses this type of filter but a different line. It's caled mest max plus for drinking wAter. I tested the ca on 3 settings and it went from 80 ppm to 40 to 20.

The tests I got are from the city lab. They were not cheap. But I assume they are accurate. The ph did shock me when I saw it. So I won't be using that setting. As far asrliability goes the filter throughout its lifetime is at most supposed to vary 5-10% towards the end of its life. 1 year or to the reccomnded water amount. This for me comes out to 5 c ents l.

My thought was that. Someone with another type of filter . Could possibly play around with the settings and be able to us 1 or 2 different water profiles as is out of the filter.
If your worried about a little variation. Conssideringthat when I opt for a water profile in beer smith. And it calculates best additions. I can never come exact . It's already a little bit off....

I guess the filter uses some kind of sap... That all the ions stick to.. Don't ask me this is just what they tried to tell me in laymans terms...)))
Ne way I'm starting to brew with this filter and get more information . And next time I'm going to buy a different one. I'm also going to be doing a lot more water tests...
If it all goes good and I can support you guys with some answers. Then I hope that this could become a new option for people like me. Or at least in Europe where it's available.. keep Yu guys all posted! As soon as the beers are ready.

 

[whoaru99]

For the first go around with the metallic taste, did you flush the filter first or use the first water out of it? Some filters I've used suggested to run the water through the new filter for a couple minutes before actually using the water from the system.

 

[hunmojo]

I don't know where that came from. It's not the filter.... Something else I did or kept it in, buckets were not clean or somtheing.....
Now the water is very clean tasting...
My only concern is a very very slight a mean very Slight seawater smell( clean taste) . I don't know how to describe it but it tastes exactly like if you we're to take a glass of to water and just add a tsp of cacl. It has that faint smell to the water... So I'm thinking its the chloride which is very minimal but still more present than anything else..... I will get a new test in a month to see how the filter dwindles ......

 

[globe]

I store my RODI water in a food safe Brute bucket, expensive but worth it. Havent had any off flavors from that, might be source of your problem, hard to say.

 

[hunmojo]

iv let the filter sit for about 5 days without using it im going to see what the water is like when it first comes out them how it changes as im flushing,,