Need advice on a bock beer...

[trbig]

I looked in the recipe thread for bock beers, but everything is either partial or full grain recipes. I am looking for something using a Liquid Malt Extract kit. I want something that tastes good, but is easy to make, and I want to boost the alcohol up as much as possible without ruining the beer. I'm wanting a 6 gallon batch and here's the ingredients I have on hand to work with:

Muntons Bock LME 4 lb
Muntons LME Amber 3.3 lb
Dry malt extract.. pounds and pounds both amber and light
Corn sugar... pounds and pounds
Rice syrup solids 2 lbs
Chocolate malt cracked grain 1/2 lb.


Besides the yeast that comes with the kit, all I have are a couple packages of Lalvin 1116 and some D47. So... can something decent be made out of what I have on hand? Suggestions anyone?

 

[Yooper]

I looked in the recipe thread for bock beers, but everything is either partial or full grain recipes. I am looking for something using a Liquid Malt Extract kit. I want something that tastes good, but is easy to make, and I want to boost the alcohol up as much as possible without ruining the beer. I'm wanting a 6 gallon batch and here's the ingredients I have on hand to work with:

Muntons Bock LME 4 lb
Muntons LME Amber 3.3 lb
Dry malt extract.. pounds and pounds both amber and light
Corn sugar... pounds and pounds
Rice syrup solids 2 lbs
Chocolate malt cracked grain 1/2 lb.


Besides the yeast that comes with the kit, all I have are a couple packages of Lalvin 1116 and some D47. So... can something decent be made out of what I have on hand? Suggestions anyone?

A bock is a lager. It requires lager yeast, and strict fermentation temperature control, normally 50 degrees for 10 days before raising to 60 degrees and then lowering to 34 degrees for 6-8 weeks. It's probably not an easy style for someone without temperature control, and advanced techniques. I wouldn't use corn sugar or rice syrup in a bock.

If you want to make a brown ale (instead of a bock lager), you could do that with some of your ingredients, but you really do need decent ale yeast.

 

[trbig]

??? I've made one of these Muntons Bock beer batches before, it was made at room temps, fermented like crazy, but I added quite a bit of corn sugar and the mouth feel is a little thin. Tasted pretty good, just not great.

I was told the rice solids would boost the alcohol in beer without changing the mouth feel or giving it a cidery taste if too much corn sugar was used.

 

[BigFloyd]

??? I've made one of these Muntons Bock beer batches before, it was made at room temps, fermented like crazy, but I added quite a bit of corn sugar and the mouth feel is a little thin. Tasted pretty good, just not great.

I was told the rice solids would boost the alcohol in beer without changing the mouth feel or giving it a cidery taste if too much corn sugar was used.

You realize that's not an actual bock, right? I've tasted one that someone else here made by following the instructions and it was drinkable. More like a sweet brown ale than a real bock though.

Having something "ferment like crazy" may not be such a great thing if it's happening at a temperature that's stressing the yeast and causing off-flavors.

From the recipe you posted with "pounds and pounds" of DME, corn sugar and rice syrup solids, it's hard to figure out what you're trying to do other than make a dark beer that will give you a big buzz.

 

[trbig]

All those ingredients are just what I have left from making other batches of beer and ciders.

Like I said, there wasn't any off flavors with the last batch, it tasted pretty good, and whatever you want to call it, it was darker than a regular beer, tastes a bit heavier, and isn't sweet like an ale.

So anyone have any ideas, or are you all going to just come on here, knock the ingredients, knock the "Bock" thing, and run? I don't mind constructive criticism, there's just not been much "constructive" yet.

 

[ThickHead]

Yooper and BigFloyd have clearly both either given you good advice or requested clarity related to what your expectations are for your final product. If you want to just toss in whatever you have laying around and make it as high in ABV as possible there is not much help that anyone here can give you. But go ahead and run with it, brew it, and call it a Bock if you like. Your original request was advice on a Bock style....both Yooper and BigFloyd explained to you that you can't get to a Bock (by style) as your final outcome with what you are working with....full stop.

If you want to make a Bock follow the advice already given....or one of the recipes listed that seem to disagree with your restrictions.

 

[BigFloyd]

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were seeking. I had gotten the impression from the initial post that you were mostly interested in combining what was one hand to get high ABV (the pursuit of which usually doesn't turn out all that well).

Have you ever used the free recipe calculator found at - http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator/?

It gives you the chance to get an idea what plugging certain ingredients into the mix will do to gravity, color, bitterness, etc. Generally, when you add extra malt, you'll need to do some sort of hop addition to balance it out. The calculator gives you the ability to add, remove and adjust things that will affect the final outcome. Make sure you set it for "extract" batch since the default is all-grain.

I'm inclined to stay away from adding corn sugar and/or rice syrup solids. Since you've got LME and DME, you'll get plenty of fermentables there along with good flavor and body. You can mess up what would otherwise have been a good batch by tossing in that sort of stuff.

 

[trbig]

If you want to just toss in whatever you have laying around and make it as high in ABV as possible there is not much help that anyone here can give you.

Apparently there's a reading problem here, or something is lost in the translation. I never said I wanted to make something as high ABV as possible, and I never said anything about throwing everything together to see what turns out.

So according to you, a Bock beer can't be made from a Bock beer mix. Thanks. You haven't said a thing helpful besides "Can't be done", yet still felt the need to post, right after a post asking again for help.

Not sure how to say it any better, but apparently a couple have misunderstood now. I know through reading many posts on this site that many are simply concerned with taste and really don't care what the ABV is. I want a drinkable beer, but I happen to like alcohol as well. If I'm going to take the time and money to make a beer, I'd like a drinkable beer with a high alcohol content over a drinkable beer with a low ABV. Sue me.

Floyd, thank you for the calendar link. I guess I'll just go to that, but I was hoping for some people with some actual experience with people in the beginning stages, and had some experience with the supplies I have to try to come up with something that I had talked about. No, apparently this isn't going to be the perfect "Bock" beer. The first batch I made with the Bock mix turned out pretty good, as I keep saying, but apparently a decent beer can't be done with what I have.

You suggested hopping the mix. Since I have never done hop additons or such, why can't you just add a hopped LME? And isn't the yeast that Muntons sends with the Bock beer kit designed to be used with it?

 

[ThickHead]

Apparently there's a reading problem here, or something is lost in the translation. I never said I wanted to make something as high ABV as possible, and I never said anything about throwing everything together to see what turns out.

Perhaps we all misread or misunderstood. I do want to help, so I will continue to try to do so.

So according to you, a Bock beer can't be made from a Bock beer mix.

That is correct. Just because you have a recipe kit with the right ingredients does not mean that you can automatically get a result without specific techniques being involved. Yooper explained this briefly by expressing the need for a specifically temperature-controlled fermentation schedule and lagering (cold storage) period to produce a Bock style beer. Without the temperature control and cold storage a lager style cannot be produced.

You haven't said a thing helpful besides "Can't be done", yet still felt the need to post, right after a post asking again for help.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I am not trying to throw up any roadblocks for you. I was simply referring to previous posts which I thought were actually helpful which you seemed to disregard.

Not sure how to say it any better, but apparently a couple have misunderstood now. I know through reading many posts on this site that many are simply concerned with taste and really don't care what the ABV is. I want a drinkable beer, but I happen to like alcohol as well. If I'm going to take the time and money to make a beer, I'd like a drinkable beer with a high alcohol content over a drinkable beer with a low ABV. Sue me.

Not rare. I like a good stout brew on occasion as well. What kind of ABV are you looking for in this beer? If you have a target in mind then balance can be achieved by ensuring enough malt and/or hop flavor are added.

 

[Yooper]

??? I've made one of these Muntons Bock beer batches before, it was made at room temps, fermented like crazy, but I added quite a bit of corn sugar and the mouth feel is a little thin. Tasted pretty good, just not great.

I was told the rice solids would boost the alcohol in beer without changing the mouth feel or giving it a cidery taste if too much corn sugar was used.

If it tastes great to you, then you should continue to make it.

I only stated that a bock was a lager, and if you're making "bock" any other way it may taste fine to you but it's not a bock. That must be where the recipe is glaringly different than yours- you're making a thin brown ale that munton's calls a "bock". But it's not a bock, because a bock is a full bodied rich malty lager.

Rice solids will certainly boost the alcohol, as will corn sugar. Both will thin and dry the beer. All malt will boost the alcohol, and not thin the body of the beer.

Sorry for the miscommunication. By saying you wanted to make a bock, we all mistakenly assumed you mean bock as in the beer style that we all know as bock. Munton's isn't a bock, and using an ale yeast cannot make a bock. If you want to make a dark brown ale with that kit, you can. And it sounds like you did and liked it- and that's the important thing.


For future reference, here is the definition of a true bock:
5B. Traditional Bock
Aroma: Strong malt aroma, often with moderate amounts of rich melanoidins and/or toasty overtones. Virtually no hop aroma. Some alcohol may be noticeable. Clean. No diacetyl. Low to no fruity esters.

Appearance: Light copper to brown color, often with attractive garnet highlights. Lagering should provide good clarity despite the dark color. Large, creamy, persistent, off-white head.

Flavor: Complex maltiness is dominated by the rich flavors of Munich and Vienna malts, which contribute melanoidins and toasty flavors. Some caramel notes may be present from decoction mashing and a long boil. Hop bitterness is generally only high enough to support the malt flavors, allowing a bit of sweetness to linger into the finish. Well-attenuated, not cloying. Clean, with no esters or diacetyl. No hop flavor. No roasted or burnt character.

Mouthfeel: Medium to medium-full bodied. Moderate to moderately low carbonation. Some alcohol warmth may be found, but should never be hot. Smooth, without harshness or astringency.

Overall Impression: A dark, strong, malty lager beer.

Comments: Decoction mashing and long boiling plays an important part of flavor development, as it enhances the caramel and melanoidin flavor aspects of the malt. Any fruitiness is due to Munich and other specialty malts, not yeast-derived esters developed during fermentation.

History: Originated in the Northern German city of Einbeck, which was a brewing center and popular exporter in the days of the Hanseatic League (14th to 17th century). Recreated in Munich starting in the 17th century. The name “bock” is based on a corruption of the name “Einbeck” in the Bavarian dialect, and was thus only used after the beer came to Munich. “Bock” also means “billy-goat” in German, and is often used in logos and advertisements.

 

[C-Rider]

It's funny that the kit is called a lager. I looked it up on Midwest and they are calling it a lager. Hmmmm are they selling it w/a lager yeast? Do the instructions tell how to lager? I'm not disputing what Yooper said, just looking at the kit discription.

BTW why not look in the recipe section and pick a style that has a high ABV?

 

[rklinck]

It's funny that the kit is called a lager. I looked it up on Midwest and they are calling it a lager. Hmmmm are they selling it w/a lager yeast? Do the instructions tell how to lager? I'm not disputing what Yooper said, just looking at the kit discription.

BTW why not look in the recipe section and pick a style that has a high ABV?

Not too surprising. My first kit was a "pilsner," but it came with ale yeast. It ended up decent, but clearly was not a pils.

 

[dbrennan]

Hi, this doesn't really help with the ingredients you've listed, but I've come across this "recipe" in the past, am planning on doing it myself in a week or so, it's basically just 2 kits and a kilo of dme

http://www.coopers.com.au/the-brewers-guild/how-to-brew/strong/light-german-bock

Cheers,

Dave

 

[trbig]

BTW why not look in the recipe section and pick a style that has a high ABV?

As stated in the first post, I went to the "bock" section and everything uses grains, which I don't have, and the closest home brew store is @ 100 miles away. That's why I was trying to find something to make from the ingredients I have. The insructions on the Muntons can of how to make "Bock" beer using their kit say nothing about temps, different yeasts, etc.. If this isn't a bock, then maybe someone needs to sue the LME companies for false advertising instead of cracking on the newb, who is posting in the BEGINNERS BEER BREWING forum, for trying to make exactly what the manufacturer calls it.


dbrennan, in his very first post, has actually posted the first real response on here pointing me to the one thing I was asking for. Thank you very much, Dave. Most helpful. I guess I'll be trying out that recipe for the "brown" beer, since I have the ingredients for "That which can't be made", (Lager) with the higher ABV that I was looking for. I'll simply pick up another can of the "brown" lager, which can't be made, when I go back to the store next time.

Instead of something helpful like, "It's not really a bock, but from what you have, you could try this....", like I was asking, most of you seem like you'd be better suited to stay out of the beginners forum and go to the advanced or HBT forum and get in pissing matches about semantics with other like-minded people that just want to be right, not helpfull. Just my 2 cents, if it's worth even that.

 

[rklinck]

As stated in the first post, I went to the "bock" section and everything uses grains, which I don't have, and the closest home brew store is @ 100 miles away. That's why I was trying to find something to make from the ingredients I have. The insructions on the Muntons can of how to make "Bock" beer using their kit say nothing about temps, different yeasts, etc.. If this isn't a bock, then maybe someone needs to sue the LME companies for false advertising instead of cracking on the newb, who is posting in the BEGINNERS BEER BREWING forum, for trying to make exactly what the manufacturer calls it.


dbrennan, in his very first post, has actually posted the first real response on here pointing me to the one thing I was asking for. Thank you very much, Dave. Most helpful. I guess I'll be trying out that recipe for the "brown" beer, since I have the ingredients for "That which can't be made", (Lager) with the higher ABV that I was looking for. I'll simply pick up another can of the "brown" lager, which can't be made, when I go back to the store next time.

Instead of something helpful like, "It's not really a bock, but from what you have, you could try this....", like I was asking, most of you seem like you'd be better suited to stay out of the beginners forum and go to the advanced or HBT forum and get in pissing matches about semantics with other like-minded people that just want to be right, not helpfull. Just my 2 cents, if it's worth even that.

I have a few thoughts/suggestions for you:

First, if you expect to get much help here in the future, you really need to be a bit less rude to people who offer advice. Rather than responding to Yooper and others by saying "oh really, I didn't realize I could not make a bock without temp control. Is there another style you suggest?", you immediately starting flaming people and arguing that the bock kit is actually a bock (it isn't).

Second, you are simply wrong that no one gave you advice until dbrennan. Yooper suggested you could make a brown ale in the very first response.

Third, you need to understand that part of the value of this cite is that it educates us all about things that we did not even know that we didn't know. So don't insult people for providing other information to you.

Fourth, you need to understand that people will often ask you for more information or will probe you initial question (a la Yooper's original comment about a bock requiring cold fermentation) to make sure they can give you the best advice. You would not be able to get good advice without that happening.

Finally, you do not want to suggest that the experienced brewers go somewhere else other than the beginner's beer brewing forum. The way this whole thing works is that the more experienced brewers provide advice to the less experienced. I am getting past the point of being a newbie, but I still anxiously await answers from Yooper whenever I ask a question or am interested in someone else's question. Yooper provides great advice and does so out of the goodness of her heart.

 

[BigFloyd]

I have a few thoughts/suggestions for you:

First, if you expect to get much help here in the future, you really need to be a bit less rude to people who offer advice. Rather than responding to Yooper and others by saying "oh really, I didn't realize I could not make a bock without temp control. Is there another style you suggest?", you immediately starting flaming people and arguing that the bock kit is actually a bock (it isn't).

Second, you are simply wrong that no one gave you advice until dbrennan. Yooper suggested you could make a brown ale in the very first response.

Third, you need to understand that part of the value of this cite is that it educates us all about things that we did not even know that we didn't know. So don't insult people for providing other information to you.

Fourth, you need to understand that people will often ask you for more information or will probe you initial question (a la Yooper's original comment about a bock requiring cold fermentation) to make sure they can give you the best advice. You would not be able to get good advice without that happening.

Finally, you do not want to suggest that the experienced brewers go somewhere else other than the beginner's beer brewing forum. The way this whole thing works is that the more experienced brewers provide advice to the less experienced. I am getting past the point of being a newbie, but I still anxiously await answers from Yooper whenever I ask a question or am interested in someone else's question. Yooper provides great advice and does so out of the goodness of her heart.

+100

 

[buttcord]

Here is a recipe:

Muntons Bock LME 4 lb
Muntons LME Amber 3.3 lb
Amber DME 1 lb
Light DME 1lb
Corn sugar 1lb
Rice syrup 2 lbs
Chocolate malt 1/2 lb

 

[trbig]

I have a few thoughts/suggestions for you:

First, if you expect to get much help here in the future, you really need to be a bit less rude to people who offer advice. Rather than responding to Yooper and others by saying "oh really, I didn't realize I could not make a bock without temp control. Is there another style you suggest?", you immediately starting flaming people and arguing that the bock kit is actually a bock (it isn't).

Second, you are simply wrong that no one gave you advice until dbrennan. Yooper suggested you could make a brown ale in the very first response.

Third, you need to understand that part of the value of this cite is that it educates us all about things that we did not even know that we didn't know. So don't insult people for providing other information to you.

Fourth, you need to understand that people will often ask you for more information or will probe you initial question (a la Yooper's original comment about a bock requiring cold fermentation) to make sure they can give you the best advice. You would not be able to get good advice without that happening.

Finally, you do not want to suggest that the experienced brewers go somewhere else other than the beginner's beer brewing forum. The way this whole thing works is that the more experienced brewers provide advice to the less experienced. I am getting past the point of being a newbie, but I still anxiously await answers from Yooper whenever I ask a question or am interested in someone else's question. Yooper provides great advice and does so out of the goodness of her heart.

First, what advice? Nobody even bothered to really read what I asked and simply said it couldn't be done. Fine, if you think it can't be done, you've got no suggestions to use the ingredients I have.. so how is this constructive?

2nd, if you'd actually read what I asked innitially, you'd see that this equates to... not actually doing anyhting that I asked using the ingredients I had.. which was no help at all. He did suggest making an ale, but gave no recipes or any other help like I asked.

3rd, I wasn't asking for information or education, I was asking for suggestions on a recipe using a bock LME that I couldn't find in the recipe section.

4th, what probing and what questioning? That didn't come until later after they said no-go on the bock?

Finally, I absolutely DO suggest that if you're going to just come on here to not answer a person's questions, simply tell them something can't be done, and argue semantics about what is/isn't a bock when you're using the exact same ingredients that makes a bock beer... or if you in fact DON'T know how to make a decent beer with the ingredients someone lists, then yes, I don't suggest doing that to a newb asking a simple question.

I see Yooper has tons of experience, but I'm also sure that when someone asks for recipe advice using ingredients they have and you simply copy/paste an encyclopedia page... all that knowledge didn't do me one bit of good for the quesion I asked, did it? Nobody but Dave seemed to actually post anything that pertained to what I was asking. I got the answer I needed, not from all the combined knowledge of this site, but by a single person with a single post.

 

[rklinck]

First, what advice? Nobody even bothered to really read what I asked and simply said it couldn't be done. Fine, if you think it can't be done, you've got no suggestions to use the ingredients I have.. so how is this constructive?

2nd, if you'd actually read what I asked innitially, you'd see that this equates to... not actually doing anyhting that I asked using the ingredients I had.. which was no help at all. He did suggest making an ale, but gave no recipes or any other help like I asked.

You either do not know how to read or are simply trying to be a troll. In the very first response, Yooper told you that you could not make a Bock without tight temperature control -- a factually accurate statement. You may not have liked this answer, but it was and is the truth. Given the title of the post and the tenor of your question, we all assumed you were trying to make a beer that fits within the accepted standards for a bock. I guess you are not aware that there are accepted standards for the various categories of beers. These standards are what the beer world operates on, and the "bock" style defines the beer as a lager, it defines it within set color parameters, it defines it in terms of alcohol content, it even suggest that the beer should be made with a particular type of mash (a decoction mash) or a particular grouping of malts. The fact is that you do not have the ingredients to make a bock.

Yooper explained that you COULD make a brown ale with the ingredients you had on hand but that you really should get yourself some better ale yeast to do so. You apparently did not like this response. If you were really interested in simply getting a good recipe from what you had on hand, you should have responded to Yooper's suggestion with something like: "Thanks for the suggestion on making a brown ale. Do you have any good recipes or suggestions based on the ingredients I have on hand?" If you had responded that way, I can guarantee that you would have gotten a lot of helpful comments from folks with suggestions. Instead of going that route, you started getting mad at people for telling you that you cannot make a Bock without temp control and lager yeast. Once you started being disrespectful, you were not going to get much more help from anyone. There's this old saying about catching more flies with honey than vinegar, and that was your problem.

 

[trbig]

You either do not know how to read or are simply trying to be a troll.

... says the guy that doesn't read. Read my original post. I keep saying time and again... does anyone know how to make a something decent with the INGREDIENTS I HAVE LISTED. I stated exactly what I had on hand to use, how much I wanted to make, and a higher ABV.. yet when I get an answer saying, "You can't make a bock, but you can make an ale with an ale yeast".. which is clearly NOT with the ingredients I currently have, now is it? So the answer was not a helpful response.

I've explained to you over and over why Yooper's response was not helpfull at all, yet you still can't seem to grasp the words written, yet accuse others of doing exactly that.

you should have responded to Yooper's suggestion with something like: "Thanks for the suggestion on making a brown ale. Do you have any good recipes or suggestions based on the ingredients I have on hand?"

So I should have turned around and re-asked the exact same question again? I said in several of my replies I was looking for recipes using what I had on hand.. but that's my fault for not stating yet again I guess?

The fact is that you do not have the ingredients to make a bock.

As stated, looks like you need to take that up with Coopers, Muntons, Briess, Beersmith, and the multitudes of other manufacturers that make and offer a bock style LME. That still has absolutely NOTHING to do with my original question...

I am looking for something using a Liquid Malt Extract kit. I want something that tastes good, but is easy to make, and I want to boost the alcohol up as much as possible without ruining the beer. I'm wanting a 6 gallon batch and here's the ingredients I have on hand to work with:

So someone comes on here and doesn't answer the question, and you find no fault. (Did anyone post a recipe using any of the ingredients?) When I point that out after a couple responses that hadn't answered my question... Oops.. that's my fault then. I asked for a recipe using those ingredients. None was given, yet here you people are, telling me I got my answer. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with liking or not liking an answer.. it's got everything to do with someone actually answering a question that was asked. As a matter of fact, if you go back and read, I asked multiple questions that nobody bothered to answer before I got a bit peeved.

 

[trbig]

Look.. This is pointless. I've got the answer I needed and there's no use continuing on. I obviously haven't made any drinking buddies here, but that's fine, I've got enough of them here. Most friends I have are life-long because I'm about the most honest and straight shooting guy you'll ever meet. I'm rough around the edges and not politically correct, but you'll never wonder what I REALLY think about something. Some like that, some don't, and it honestly doesn't concern me in the slightest if you think I'm an ass. You'll have lots of like-minded company on that opinion, but I'm also the guy you can call at 3am to help you get your car out of the ditch.. while I make fun of you for doing so.

I've been married to my highschool sweetheart since we were still teens, (18 and 19) I've got two wonderful boys in their 20's, one just graduated college and the other is in his junior year, and both are the hardest working kids in their age group of anyone I've ever met, and hoping they got that from my work ethic. Neither of them drink, smoke, or cuss, but I blame their mother for that one. I've served my country, work hard, and I pay my bills on time. If my personality isn't your style, or I've in any way hurt your fragile feelings in any of these posts, it honestly was not my intention.

Feel free to keep posting here, but I've got the answer I was looking for and am done here. Thank you again, Dave, and BigFloyd for the recipe calculator.

 

[buttcord]

Look.. This is pointless. I've got the answer I needed and there's no use continuing on. I obviously haven't made any drinking buddies here, but that's fine, I've got enough of them here. Most friends I have are life-long because I'm about the most honest and straight shooting guy you'll ever meet. I'm rough around the edges and not politically correct, but you'll never wonder what I REALLY think about something. Some like that, some don't, and it honestly doesn't concern me in the slightest if you think I'm an ass. You'll have lots of like-minded company on that opinion, but I'm also the guy you can call at 3am to help you get your car out of the ditch.. while I make fun of you for doing so.

I've been married to my highschool sweetheart since we were still teens, (18 and 19) I've got two wonderful boys in their 20's, one just graduated college and the other is in his junior year, and both are the hardest working kids in their age group of anyone I've ever met, and hoping they got that from my work ethic. Neither of them drink, smoke, or cuss, but I blame their mother for that one. I've served my country, work hard, and I pay my bills on time. If my personality isn't your style, or I've in any way hurt your fragile feelings in any of these posts, it honestly was not my intention.

Feel free to keep posting here, but I've got the answer I was looking for and am done here. Thank you again, Dave, and BigFloyd for the recipe calculator.

Good luck in life dude. You've obviously had an uphill battle and are making the best of what you have.