Step by step of my brewday: Doing a massive hop stand

[AnOldUR]

Looking forward to hearing your final results.

 

[DustBow]

Kal - kegged up yet? Any more samples?
Did my first hop stand yesterday and can't wait to see how it tastes in a couple weeks

 

[kal]

Good timing! I kegged it a few days ago and forgot to post about it... mostly because there isn't much to say or show.

The two kegs are now sitting in my conditioning fridge at 32F with the CO2 gas attached so they they'll carb up to about 5 PSI:

Not much to see. It's kegs in a fridge.

I did taste it after 24-36 hours and now that it's cold (but not 100% carbed) it still has a ton of hop flavour, not much aroma from what I can tell and isn't overly bitter.

To use what is probably an overused marketing phrase: It tastes like liquid hops. To use a term from wine: The hop flavour seems to have excellent 'length' (the amount of time the flavour stays with you after you swallow it).

It reminds me a lot of sorts of American IPAs I like to make (lot of late hop additions) but without the up front bitterness that is usually included as well. So far it's definitely the most flavourful APA I've had.

It'll be interesting to see how it fares in 2-4 weeks once it is fully carb'ed up and cleared. It's going into a local tasting that a bunch of brewers are doing in early May so I'll make sure to collect comments and post back.

Kal

 

[DustBow]

Sounds good. I think we're starting to tap into some of the big brewers' "secrets" when it comes to hop bursting flavors....although with them it's just more about logisitics and volume I think - they simply can't chill their batches as fast as we can, thus "whirlpool hops" was born

 

[gandelf]

Have you tasted it yet? The last three batches of APA/IPA I have done the same way, with the exception I BIAB. For me, the 170F 80 minute hop stand provides the best taste and level of hop flavor and aroma. Again for me, fermentation does strip a significant amount ~50 - 70 percent of the aroma and ~ 25 percent flavor. So, I torpedo (march pump/whole house filter) 3 to 6 ounces of leaf hops at 65 degrees for 2 days. Torpedoing also brightens up my hoppy ales significantly.

It works for me; I have been torpedoing for aprox. 9 months and ALL of my hoppy beers get it and a few non-hoppy beers also. By the way, very nice documentation and pics.

 

[kal]

Have you tasted it yet?

Yes. See my comments in my last post (3 posts above).

Kal

 

[KozHops]

Great thread and pics - amazing setup. Subscribed.

 

[gandelf]

Yes. See my comments in my last post (3 posts above).

Kal

I mean, have you tasted it after it has completely carbed and settled?

 

[kal]

It has not completeley carbed and settled yet. In 2-4 weeks will be best.

Kal

 

[gandelf]

It has not completeley carbed and settled yet. In 2-4 weeks will be best.

Kal

I will be looking forward to your evaluation.

I would like to add, I have been doing some FWH and whirlpooling with good results. For me, the FWH provides a
different flavor profile that appeals to my taste buds. I should mention, since I no longer add hops during the boil;
I have been doing 20 minute boils for months now with no DMS.

On a side note: I have personally heard Jamil (JZ) talk about doing ALL whirlpool hopping on some ales since he has
been pro brewing. His motivation was to add as much hops in the whirlpool to derive the desired bitterness while
getting maximum flavor and aroma. This is what motivated me to give this a go.

 

[davekippen]

What a great write up. Oh, and regarding your setup and bar - freaking awesome.

 

[GRBC]

Have you tasted it yet? The last three batches of APA/IPA I have done the same way, with the exception I BIAB. For me, the 170F 80 minute hop stand provides the best taste and level of hop flavor and aroma. Again for me, fermentation does strip a significant amount ~50 - 70 percent of the aroma and ~ 25 percent flavor. So, I torpedo (march pump/whole house filter) 3 to 6 ounces of leaf hops at 65 degrees for 2 days. Torpedoing also brightens up my hoppy ales significantly.

It works for me; I have been torpedoing for aprox. 9 months and ALL of my hoppy beers get it and a few non-hoppy beers also. By the way, very nice documentation and pics.

Would you mind elaborating a bit on your torpedo process? Do you recirculate your fermenting/fermented beer to/from the fermentation vessel through your whole house filter packed with leaf hops continuously for 2 days?

 

[gandelf]

Would you mind elaborating a bit on your torpedo process? Do you recirculate your fermenting/fermented beer to/from the fermentation vessel through your whole house filter packed with leaf hops continuously for 2 days?

My torpedo process is on here somewhere? I basically keg the beer, use another empty keg to push sanitizer through, put the hops in a sack and then use the keg to purge with co2.

If yo haven't tasted Sierra Nevada's Torpedo Ale, give it a go; the hop flavor and aroma is from torpedoing. The process and a pic is in Mitch Steel's hop book.

Since I BIAB, I no longer use my second March pump. I put some hose and corny keg quick connectors on it and us it to recirculate PBW and then Star San to clean my kegs. So, it was simple to just attach a keg post and quick connector to the filter housing. It takes ~10 minutes to hookup the torpedo. When the torpedoing is finished, I use the spare keg to push the beer back into the filled keg with co2; minus a sample. Hope that helps?

 

[khugs21]

dude, this sounds like a sick beer! I just recently brewed a IPA with only hops added during the hopstand and my hop back. A mix of simcoe, cascade, and amarillo but only amounted to about 7oz not including the dry hop. So far it taste amazing and im going to try this with a whole mess of other hop combos. Good luck with the brew and your system looks awesome.

 

[kal]

My torpedo process is on here somewhere? I basically keg the beer, use another empty keg to push sanitizer through, put the hops in a sack and then use the keg to purge with co2.

How long do you recirculate for?
Do you find it produces a different taste than just dry hopping longer?

The main reasons for using a torpedo as told by Steve Dresler (brewmaster at SN) is to more effectively and efficiently extract the volatile hop oils. Prior to this using giant hop bags resulted in poor saturation and therefore slower extraction of hop oils. Longer contact time was needed with more hops.

So from what I understand, it's just to speed up the process but I'm curious what you think. In a commercial brewery where they're always looking to clear tanks for the next batch.

Kal

 

[gandelf]

How long do you recirculate for?

Do you find it produces a different taste than just dry hopping longer?

The main reasons for using a torpedo as told by Steve Dresler (brewmaster at SN) is to more effectively and efficiently extract the volatile hop oils. Prior to this using giant hop bags resulted in poor saturation and therefore slower extraction of hop oils. Longer contact time was needed with more hops.

So from what I understand, it's just to speed up the process but I'm curious what you think. In a commercial brewery where they're always looking to clear tanks for the next batch.

Kal

Basement temp (~65 F) for 2 days.

For me, it's not a different flavor or aroma, it's much much more of both. I have tried all of the other hop process and torpedoing provides the most flavor and aroma for me. Now I FWH and torpedo all of my hoppy beers.

Depending on the recirculation rate; torpedoing will decrease contact time significant. I believe this is accomplished by increasing ALL of the wort's contact time each pass through the hops. An added benefit is the "filtering" the whole hops do; my hoppy beers have never been as bright.

 

[kal]

Interesting. I may have to try this out myself as it's pretty straight forward and I probably have everything I need already.

Kal

 

[branCHEs]

I saw this the day before I brewed. I wanted to brew an APA.

I started my mash and I thought everything was good until I realized that my mash was 15 degrees hotter then it should have been: 170 instead of 154. I realized one of my thermometers was off by 15 degrees.

I said to hell with it, lets call this one an experiment... Instead of doing the usual 60 min addition then late boil additions, I decided to just add all the hops at 5 minutes. I know it's not exactly the same as a hop stand but it was this tread that inspired me, haha. I also let the hops sit in the wort for 5 minutes before I cooled it down, but it was off the flame.

Ill post back with results oh how it tasted once its finished.

I ended up with a OG of 1.047 - so I came in a little low. Here is the recipe

 

[AnOldUR]

Kal. Just saw this thread on IBU testing.
Would be the perfect beer to test this service.





see how good I spend other peoples money . . . :cross:

 

[MagicSmoker]

Kal. Just saw this thread on IBU testing.
Would be the perfect beer to test this service...

+1 on this. Take advantage of the service now before the guy realizes $5 per IBU test just isn't worth the bother!!!

 

[kal]

Kal. Just saw this thread on IBU testing.
Would be the perfect beer to test this service.

Yes it would! Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

I posted in that thread as how you proceed with this testing isn't 100% clear. I'll cost me a lot more than $5 to ship from Canada but why not!

Kal

 

[Ravenshead]

+1 on this. Take advantage of the service now before the guy realizes $5 per IBU test just isn't worth the bother!!!

Yes, you should. I told him to charge $25 (check our profiles to understand the relationship).

 

[wobdee]

Any update? How'd it turn out?

 

[kal]

It's been 3 weeks since I kegged. It was pretty "green" and grassy/vegetal at first but has now mellowed out and the hop flavour/aroma is very abundant/noticeable. Definitely more than any other APA I've made. Definitely not too bitter either. I'm waiting another week or two before doing some "real" tasting/testing, but this is definitely what I was going after.

It's going into a competition in 2-3 weeks so my intent was to collect comments there and post back. I know what I like in beers, but I'm horrible at describing tastes/flavours.

Kal

 

[kal]

So back on May 4th a local APA brewing competition was held for which I originally brewed this recipe. My beer came in 3rd out of 11 entries.

Judging was 50% people's choice from blind sampling (the brewers chose their top 3 and awarded 1, 2, or 3 points) and 50% by two BJCP judges who filled out score sheets. I'm actually surprised it scored that high given that it's a bit 'out there' and I was trying something I've never done before.

Here are the rules as it's not your typical BJCP competition at all, nor was it BJCP sanctioned:

Have multiple people brew either the exact same recipe or a recipe with restrictions so that participants show off their skills and to evaluate the differences between beers with minimal variables. This one is a little more open. Enjoy!

Style: American Pale Ale

Rules:

1. Sign Up
2. Brew the recipe. Only substitutes are those noted.
3. Present your sample at the Throwdown on May 4th.
4. Bring your recipe/brewsheet to the Throwdown for comparative purposes.
5. One official entry per person.

Targeted OG (adjust grain bill to hit this OG): 1.052

Grain: (Mash Temp: OPEN)
90% 2-row
5% Crystal 60L or Caramunich equivalent
5% Carafoam/Carapils/Oatmeal/Barley Flakes/Wheat (choice of 1 of the 5)

Hops (Targeted IBU is 40):
You can use 1 or any combination of ONLY the following hops: Chinook, citra, amarillo, cascade and centennial.
No specific hop schedule.

Dry Hopping:
0-2oz using hops listed above.

Yeast
US-05 or WLP001 or Wyeast 1056

Finings:
Whirfloc, Irish Moss, Gelatin (all optional)

I mashed mine at 150F, used US-05 in one fermenter and WY1056 in another as part of a separate test.

As mentioned previously the big 'difference' in my beer was the hop schedule. With only post boil hops it's definitely a bit 'out there'.

My recipe (posted earlier) was the following:

Electric Hop Stand Pale Ale (batch #154)

10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Kal Wallner

Size: 12.0 gal @ 68 °F
Original Gravity: 1.052 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.010 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 7.53 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 5.46% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: No friggin' idea

Ingredients:
17.5 lb Domestic 2-Row Malt (89.7%)
1 lb Crystal Malt 50-60L (5.1%)
1 lb Carapils®/Carafoam® (5.1%)
1 Whirlfloc Tablet (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2.6 oz Centennial Hops (11.1%) - added end boil
1.0 oz Cascade (6.0%) - added end boil
1.0 oz Chinook (11.4%) - added end boil
1.0 oz Citra Hops (11.1%) - added end boil
5.0 oz Centennial Hops (11.1%) - added +30 m into hop stand
1.5 oz Cascade (6.0%) - added +30 m into hop stand
2.0 oz Chinook (11.4%) - added +30 m into hop stand
2.0 oz Citra Hops (11.1%) - added +30 m into hop stand
12 g Fermentis Safale US-05 dry yeast (fermenter #1)
Wyeast 1056 American Ale slurry (fermenter #2)
1.0 oz Centennial Hops (11.1%) - added added dry to secondary fermenter
0.5 oz Cascade (6.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1.0 oz Chinook (11.4%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1.0 oz Citra Hops (11.1%) - added dry to secondary fermenter

Notes:
Add 500mg potassium metabisulphite to 20 gallons water to remove chlorine/chloramine (as required).
Water treated with brewing salts to: Ca=110, Mg=18, Na=16, Cl=50, S04=275
1.25 qt/lb mash thickness.
Single infusion mash @ 150F for 90 minutes.
Sparge with 168F water for 1-2 hrs.
Boil for 90 mins.
Adding first hops at flameout (0 mins). Whirlpool by gently stirring every ~10 mins. Lid off.
Drop temp to 170F and hold at 170F, add +30 min hops. Steep for 80 mins total then chill.
Aerate well (60 seconds with Fizz-X). Hydrate dry yeast for 30-60 mins until frothy prior to pitching.
Ferment at 68F. Dry hop for 7-10 days in secondary.
Rack to brite tank (secondary), crash chill to near freezing (if possible), add 1 tsp of unflavoured gelatine dissolved in a cup of hot distilled water per 5 gallons of beer, and let clear for 2-3 days.
Package as you would normally. I keg and carbonate on the low side (around 2 to 2.2 volumes of C02) to minimize carbonic bite and let the hop/malt flavour come through.

For more information on the complete brewing process steps used, see my Brew Day: Step by Step guide.

The stated 40 IBU requirement caused me some concern. I knew I'd have no way of guessing what the results would be like but that also nobody could argue that mine was or wasn't 40 IBU.

As it turns out, out of the 11 blind samples I tried (as a brewer I was part of the 'peoples choice'), mine was the hoppiest. After trying all 11 I was able to pick mine out without difficulties. I found it had the most hop flavour but was surprisingly low in hop aroma given the amount of post boil kettle hops and dry hops used. I'm not sure why. I would have expected more hop aroma. I think next time I'll try lowering the amount of hops at flameout to about 1/2 and add some first wort hops instead. I may also brew it as an IPA (higher ABV). There's still room for lots of experimentation.

There were a few others that were fairly hoppy too in terms of flavour but used decidedly less late boil hops. It may be that I hit a brick wall in terms of hop flavours with only a few ounces and that after a certain point adding more wasn't doing much more.

There are a lot of variables at play including steeping temperature, steep time, and even the type of hop (as different hops have different oils that isomerize at different temperatures).

The beer tasted 'greener' (grassy) longer than most similar beers. It took a good month before this faded into the background. This is not surprising given the amount of vegetal matter (hops) that were used.

I definitely like the resulting beer and my fears of it being not bitter enough are completely unfounded. Compared to the other competition beers (and the 30 IBU commercial beer used as the 'calibration'), mine is definitely more bitter too, but not overly bitter. I've had a few more pints of since the competition and find that it's not a beer to be drunk even slightly warm. It needs to be very cold (35-38F) with low carbonation. It's extremely thirst quenching when served this way and the hop bitterness and flavours work well.

If anyone does similar tests to these please post your results. I'd be very curious to read them.

Here are some of the pictures I took at the competition:

Samples chilling:

BJCP score sheets were provided to the 'peoples choice' voters for those who wished to refer to them:

The 'calibration' beer was Lake of Bays Crosswind Pale Ale, a somewhat middle of the road example (low malt taste, low IBU):

The 'peoples choice' brewers trying out the various samples:

One of the people's choice brewers got really into it and managed to "P" himself*:

*The samples were all marked anonymously with letters. This brewer managed to spill the sample labelled "P" on himself, effectively "P-ing" himself. Hilarity ensued.

The BJCP judges filling out the score sheets:

While the malt bill was fixed, at least one of the samples was noticeably darker in colour:

Our illustrious host tallies up the results:

... and then takes the prize (congrats!) while a disbeliever has to confirm the tally himself:

Kal

 

[Carlscan26]

As it turns out, out of the 11 blind samples I tried (as a brewer I was part of the 'peoples choice'), mine was the hoppiest. After trying all 11 I was able to pick mine out without difficulties. I found it had the most hop flavour but was surprisingly low in hop aroma given the amount of post boil kettle hops and dry hops used. I'm not sure why. I would have expected more hop aroma. I think next time I'll try lowering the amount of hops at flameout to about 1/2 and add some first wort hops instead. I may also brew it as an IPA (higher ABV). There's still room for lots of experimentation.

I would think that doing less of the flameout would do the opposite of what you want if you wanted to increase aroma.

I'm wondering if perhaps the hop stand was a bit too warm and more of the aromatic oils isomerized that way?

 

[kal]

I'm wondering if perhaps the hop stand was a bit too warm and more of the aromatic oils isomerized that way?

Good question. I don't know. There's so little information about this out there and I'm definitely not an expert.

As posted previously, ~6 oz was added at flameout @212F and left to steep for 30 minutes. The temperature dropped fairly quickly and then 10 more oz were added and left to steep, held at 170F:

00:00 - Upon turning off the power the temp dropped from 210F to 208F almost immediately.
+01:00 - Added 6 oz of room temp hops. Temp dropped to 206F.
+03:00 - Temp at 203F
+08:00 - Temp at 196F
+13:00 - Temp at 192F
+25:00 - Temp at 182F
+30:00 - Temp at 178F. Added second dose (10 oz) of hops.

+30:00 to 80:00 - At this point I set the boil kettle to 170F to avoid going any lower. The temperature settled out at 170F and stayed there for the rest of the hop stand with the boil kettle element firing periodically. The firing of the element does not create a violent boil or stir, just enough movement to keep the hops moving around without me having to stir as much.

I think there's a lot of room for interesting experimentation with (a) hop types, (b) steeping temperature, and (c) time.

It appears to be (at least to me) a very unknown playing field. There's very little information about it. Exciting times!

I think it would be interesting to try something almost like what Dogfish Head does with their continuous hopping but after the boil at a descending temps instead of during the boil: Meaning after boil turn the boil kettle temp down to 205F, add an once of hops, wait 5 mins, then down to 200F, add another ounce, wait 5 mins, down to 195F, another ounce... and so on. (or something similar).

As an aside, I remember thinking when I was planning this recipe that I was really glad I went with a boil kttle temp control where I can actually dial in the temperature and not just do duty cycle manual control as this would not be possible at all if that was the case.

Kal

 

[mcl]

Kal
Thanks for you work on this. Since your first post I have tried a variant of this in a IIPA. I added a 60 min addition for about 2/3 of my calculated IBU's and the rest were added after flame out. I did two hop stands. One at 190 and holding it there for 30 min. The second was at 150 and letting it drop naturally for 30 min. I only used the 190 addition in my IBU calculations. This beer also had a significant amount of dry hops. This made a great beer but it isn't over the top in aroma like i wanted/expected.

I am making a white IPA this weekend and I am trying the double hopstand again. This time i will also be adding traditional aroma additions at both 15min and 10min. I will also be dropping the second KO temperature to 140 and holding it there.

 

[kal]

Thanks for posting mcl - let us know how the second batch works out!

Kal

 

[Carlscan26]

I honestly think 190 is too high - try closer to 170? I'm holding the May-June BYO and in the 'Ask the Pros' article on hop bursting and hop stands, Curt Plants discusses how temps above 175 achieves a lot of isomerization of the alpha acids. Mitch Steele does not provide any temp recommendations.

What's the thought behind lowering the temp on the second stand?

 

[DustBow]

I believe Myrcene is the hop oil we all love in "American IPA" hops.
There are discrepancies all over about it's flashpoint temperature, but it's definitely lower than the other oils. I've seen it listed from 120 all the way up to 170 or so.
Getting down into the 140-160 range might be the best bet for preserving as much myrcene as possible, of course the lower the temp, the longer exposure time needed to extract the oils.
Just one of those things that will take a lot of practice and experimentation - different hops, different amounts, different temps, different times....so many variables.
But I do think these hop stands / whirlpool additions will become more & more popular over time for maximum hop flavor and aroma.
I read that Stone basically adds all their late hops at flameout due to their long whirlpool/rest/chilling time

 

[mtnagel]

Sigma Aldrich says it's 111F on their MSDS.

(and hello fellow Cincinnatian)

 

[DustBow]

Hello back
Yep, it's all over the board....the last 2 IPAs I've brewed I've done stands at 160* and just let the temp fall nauturally during the wait time. 1 is still young and the other still in ferementer so I can't judge too much on that yet.

 

[spenghali]

Kal,

I did a similar experiment with my house IPA Hop Glop (scroll down to the bottom of my blog linked in my signature). I think for the aroma addition you should be around 165F in or at least between 170-160, which BYO sites as the "aroma" addition range. 170+ there is a lot of isomerization going on still.

That said, I feel that my aroma is not holding up as well as my previous iterations that did not utilize hops stands. I usually keg hop these Hop Glop batches (but didn't this time so I could see how the hop stand aroma came through), and I feel this does the best job of maintaining aroma longevity.

However, the flavor hop stand by far exceeded my expectations. This is definitely the best hop flavor I've ever achieved for my house IPA. Your use of wine terminology to describe the hop flavor is spot on. Also noteworthy is that I only did a 30 minute flavor stand and a 15 minute aroma stand. I wish I had not use a CTZ bittering addition because it came out too bitter for me contributing ~45 IBUs (way too much combined with the hop stand).

 

[DustBow]

What do you consider the "flavor stand" range?

 

[JohnK93]

-John

 

[spenghali]

What do you consider the "flavor stand" range?

212-190F, I believe this is cited in the BYO article

 

[mcl]

What's the thought behind lowering the temp on the second stand?

DustBow pretty much covers my thought process on it. I am assuming that the 190 rest will "destroy" some of the more volatile oils. I am hoping the 140 rest will extract a larger amount of these than say a dry hop will. It looks like 140 might be too high as well.

Here is my hop schedule from Sat. This is for an american wheat/WIPA that has an og of 1.052.
In oz.
Boil hops ~18 IBU
.15 magnum at 60
.5 cascade at 15
.5 centennial at 10

added at 190 and whirl-pooled for 30 min ~20 IBU
.5 amarillo
.5 cascade
.5 centennial

Added at 140 and whirl-pooled for 30 min
1 falconer's flight
.5 amarillo

Dry hop to come as well

 

[Patirck]

Any updates on this process? How did the beer taste after they had a chance to age a bit?

 

[Herky21]

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