Growler Saver - Pressurized Growler Cap

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There was a thread on a similar product. Since the manufacturer can't control the consistency of growler strength, I am skeptical.

Exploding growlers could be very dangerous. I know someone who had a friend who lost an eye to an exploding champagne bottle.
 
The Growler Saver is equipped with a pressure relief valve similar to what's on a Corny keg or a commercial keg coupler to prevent over pressurization. The pressure relief valve on the Growler Saver vents a a much lower pressure, though. I believe it's set at 25 psi. It works automatically, so as soon as the set pressure is reached, it vents. You don't have to worry about over pressurizing it. I'm willing to bet that all of the instances of exploding growlers that you read about on the internet are from people bottle conditioning in them where pressures may have exceeded the set point of the Growler Saver's relief valve. A little too much priming sugar or bottling before your beer is finished fermenting will blow up any bottle whether it's a Growler or a 12oz bottle. Have we never heard of a 12oz bottle bomb?

A lot of people say that growlers are not designed to hold pressure, but where is that information coming from? I have never seen any test data at all with the exception of what the inventor of the Growler Saver has posted:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/force-carbonate-growler-399746/#post5065072

I like the device because it's all about improving the quality of beer. You can purge oxygen before getting a growler filled, you can purge immediately after it's filled to keep it fresh indefinitely, and you can even carb homebrew. You can dry hop in your growler to test different varieties of hops without sacrificing a 5 gallon batch. You can use a tire gauge to dial in an exact pressure so that you can experiment with different CO2 volumes to find what works best for your particular beer style. There's probably more uses that I'm not thinking of...
 
There are often warnings in the product description (there was one on Northern Brewer) telling you they aren't meant to hold pressure.

The bottom line is that any pressure rating should come from the growler manufacturers, not someone selling one of these growler saver products. There are just too many variables.

I don't doubt that some of the cases of exploding growlers are due to overpriming, but certainly not all of them. If you want to play russian roulette with your beer, go ahead.
 
This guy is local to me and apparently he was in the homebrew shop I work at this week. I was off the day he stopped by to show us the product but all the guys at the shop said they were pretty impressed with the product and it was the best one they'd seen in this category. I'd be interested in seeing it myself. I meant to ask my SWMBO if I could donate to the kickstarter...

PS: Whoever is making this product, you should throw in a sticker with all the Kickstarter levels. I love stickers and I was sad to see if I give $60 or whatever I wouldn't get one. Guess I'll probably just do the $5 and the $60 or whatever the levels are to get a sticker and the product.
 
One thing to consider is... when a growler is filled and the cap is put on, it's now under pressure. Whatever pressure the beer was carbonated at, minus what's lost in the head space. As it warms up, that pressure increases. What is the PSI figure on that? I don't know. But it is under pressure.

Whether or not these things are rated for pressure, the fact is that they are being used successfully under pressure tens of thousands of times per day. Do growlers periodically break? I guess so, that's what I've heard. My belief is that that is very few and far between.

The growler saver only seeks to safely fill the growler headspace with co2 pressure rather than letting the beer equalize on it's on. The question is, can that be done safely. It seems that it can. At least, I'm convinced enough of that to want to give it a try myself. :)
 
One thing to consider is... when a growler is filled and the cap is put on, it's now under pressure. Whatever pressure the beer was carbonated at, minus what's lost in the head space. As it warms up, that pressure increases. What is the PSI figure on that? I don't know. But it is under pressure.

This is easily measured.

Whether or not these things are rated for pressure, the fact is that they are being used successfully under pressure tens of thousands of times per day. Do growlers periodically break? I guess so, that's what I've heard. My belief is that that is very few and far between.

So if the increased pressure from beer alone is able to break a growler (albeit very infrequently); wouldn't you expect growler breakage to increase if you are increasing the pressure even more with an external device? (Disclaimer: I'm assuming that the growler cap increases the pressure more than what beer can do alone...somebody please correct me if I'm off base on this).

The growler saver only seeks to safely fill the growler headspace with co2 pressure rather than letting the beer equalize on it's on. The question is, can that be done safely. It seems that it can. At least, I'm convinced enough of that to want to give it a try myself. :)

What evidence are you referring to that indicates that this can be safely done?
 
The point that I've made is that I don't doubt your product, I doubt the growlers themselves. If I could buy a growler with a pressure rating stamped into it (like with a keg) I wouldn't have any concern.

+1 on this. Just because a growler CAN hold up to a certain pressure doesn't mean it was DESIGNED to do that, and I feel like you're pressing your luck to use something not designed with those forces in mind. Maybe contact some manufacturers and see if they would be interested in doing the testing (or would share results with you of testing they have already done). I would think if it was doable in some way, they would be interested, b/c it would only lead to more sales. And if they are not interested, maybe its because they don't want the liability or manufacturing costs to produce something they will warrant to a certain pressure that is still affordable. If there were not major issues involved, I would have expected a manufacturer to produce something like this before now anyway.
 
broadbill said:
and you know this how?

A basic understanding of the legal system, business law classes, dealing with insurance companies for work on a regular basis, several family members in the insurance industry... And common sense as previously mentioned.

Donating for a product launch assumes no liability whatsoever. Shareholders aren't held accountable for the malfeasance a corporation, why would you be held accountable for the liabilities of a venture you aren't even buying a stake in? The officers of the company are generally considered responsible.

This is oversimplifying a bit but seriously, this is such a non-issue.
 
A basic understanding of the legal system, business law classes, dealing with insurance companies for work on a regular basis, several family members in the insurance industry... And common sense as previously mentioned.

Donating for a product launch assumes no liability whatsoever. Shareholders aren't held accountable for the malfeasance a corporation, why would you be held accountable for the liabilities of a venture you aren't even buying a stake in? The officers of the company are generally considered responsible.



This is oversimplifying a bit but seriously, this is such a non-issue.

Kinda funny that you guys say its common sense that would tell me that, but then you had to oversimply and needed business law classes to explain it....probably not common sense then is it? :drunk:

My impression is that this isn't a corporation that is running this project, its a guy building this out of his garage or something. I don't know for sure, but it doesn't sound like there is a corporation to shield its "investors" from liability.

Maybe kickstarter is set up that their "investors" are legally customers (as they receive such returns as stickers and crap like that) and thus not liable..

Either way, its a non-issue for me. I was just curious.
 
So if the increased pressure from beer alone is able to break a growler (albeit very infrequently); wouldn't you expect growler breakage to increase if you are increasing the pressure even more with an external device?

As I understand it, you're not increasing the pressure "even more," you're simply accelerating the speed at which it reaches an equilibrium pressure.

That is, when you put beer in a growler and seal it, CO2 comes out of solution into the headspace of the growler until the pressure reaches a level in equilibrium with the remaining CO2 in solution (around 12-15 PSI at fridge temperatures, depending on the volumes to which the beer was carbonated).

Once that pressure is reached, it holds the remaining CO2 in solution, and the pressure doesn't increase any higher. These "growler keeper" devices simply fill that head space with CO2 from an external source, instead of CO2 coming out of solution from the beer, to that "equilibrium pressure." The result is that less CO2 comes out of solution from the beer.

In either case, the final pressure inside the growler is the same, and thus the risk of the growler failing is the same.
 
So much argument about irrelevant topics...

If you're interested in funding Steve's project then donate. If you have questions about the safety of the product Steve has already answered your questions. If his answers aren't enough for you then don't buy the product. It's that simple...

I think it's an awesome idea and I'm excited to try it ASAP.
 
So this is quite rad. Steve actually filled a growler at a Whole Foods, capped it with a pressure gauge. After bringing it home and letting it sit at room temp, by the time it rose t o 57 degrees it was almost 30 PSI. That being said, something keeping the pressure from 10-25 PSI would be safe. And THAT being said, I'll +1 Gitmoe I'm looking forward to trying these out. There's just about nothing worse than wasting beer and no matter how hard you try, at the end of a night where lots of growlers getting passed around, it's often that there's some left in at least one or two that is going to be awful the next day. Also, I hate it when I get a growler filled only to realize it wasn't sealed properly or there was another issue with the cap and it's already going flat as soon as I open it.


And like Gitmoe said; if you don't want it don't buy it. Cheers!
 
As I understand it, you're not increasing the pressure "even more," you're simply accelerating the speed at which it reaches an equilibrium pressure.

That is, when you put beer in a growler and seal it, CO2 comes out of solution into the headspace of the growler until the pressure reaches a level in equilibrium with the remaining CO2 in solution (around 12-15 PSI at fridge temperatures, depending on the volumes to which the beer was carbonated).

Once that pressure is reached, it holds the remaining CO2 in solution, and the pressure doesn't increase any higher. These "growler keeper" devices simply fill that head space with CO2 from an external source, instead of CO2 coming out of solution from the beer, to that "equilibrium pressure." The result is that less CO2 comes out of solution from the beer.

In either case, the final pressure inside the growler is the same, and thus the risk of the growler failing is the same.


got it....so is that to say that the pressure relief will go at anything above 12-15 psi?
 
got it....so is that to say that the pressure relief will go at anything above 12-15 psi?

Last time I asked Steve he didn't say what the max pressure would be the valve would be set at when it goes into production but it will be somewhere between 10-25 PSI. I don't know what the setting will be when goes into full production, but somewhere in that range.
 
Last time I asked Steve he didn't say what the max pressure would be the valve would be set at when it goes into production but it will be somewhere between 10-25 PSI. I don't know what the setting will be when goes into full production, but somewhere in that range.

So in your test you have 57 degree beer that got up to 30PSI-does this mean that the valve would blow anytime you let the growler warm up? (if it is only set to 25 psi, or even less).
 
So in your test you have 57 degree beer that got up to 30PSI-does this mean that the valve would blow anytime you let the growler warm up? (if it is only set to 25 psi, or even less).

I will preface by saying that I did not do the test. Steve, the guy who is making these did. I would honestly suggest directing that and additional questions to his Kickstarter page where he would happily respond. I'm not the manufacturer, and there is plenty of speculation and as I don't know for sure (though I assume it would have released that to bring it down to the setting it's set for), I would rather the person making these communicate that information.
 
So in your test you have 57 degree beer that got up to 30PSI-does this mean that the valve would blow anytime you let the growler warm up? (if it is only set to 25 psi, or even less).

That's going to depend on what style of beer that is in the growler (because different styles are carbonated to different CO2 volumes) and how warm the beer inside the growler is allowed to get. You can't simply say that the valve will vent when the beer warms up.

Even if the valve "blows," it's only going to vent a little CO2 until the set point is reached. When the set point is reached, the valve re-closes. I just thought I'd mention that for anyone who doesn't know how pressure relief valves work.
 
Here's Steve's official announcement of the test results:
Source:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1691296505/the-growler-savertm-the-last-pour-is-as-good-as-th/posts/460699?ref=email&show_token=21fad48f286bcc3b

Hello everyone, I hope you all had a great weekend and are doing well today. I would like to bring you up to date on the project and provide a few technical details regarding the function and safety of the Growler Saver.

One major subject I would like to address is the myth that growlers can not hold pressure. I have scientific evidence that will show you that growlers filled from draft are already under pressure from the first time they are filled, and this pressure will also rise as ambient temperatures increase. In order to demonstrate this, I manufactured a cap with a built in psi gauge. This cap was then fitted to a standard growler immediately after it was filled from tap at a local establishment. If you look at the pictures below, you can see that the pressure inside the growler is currently at 30psi at 55 degrees. This psi level is above the preset factory setting for the pressure relief valve on the Growler Saver, and proves once and for all that the Growler Saver is an impeccably awesome product that has been designed and manufactured with both function and safety in mind. Judging by this evidence, it is also fair to say that the Growler Saver is actually safer then a standard growler cap that has no built in pressure relief valve.

Additionally I would like to inform you that we have filmed the footage for the next updated video and am in the process of editing it, and will then be posting it to Kickstarter asap.

image-244488-full.jpg


image-244489-full.jpg
 
Steve went out of his way to bring the growler pictured above with the pressure gauge and another growler with the new cap over to the LHBS I work at today so I could see everything he was talking about in person. He sold me 100% now that I've seen the cap in person and saw first hand how effective it can be. He answered all the questions I still had. The automatic blowoff is what sets this apart from any other growler cap idea I've previously seen...
 
Steve's test is gold. Of course we know that the pressure inside a freshly filled growler at serving temperature is going to be very close to the pressure used to carbonate/serve a beer (most likely it will be slightly lower due to headspace and some carbonation lost during growler filling), but I never thought that such a slight rise in temperature could cause a filled growler to be anywhere near 30psi. It's funny to think about the paranoia surrounding pressurizing growlers and then realize that every one of use has probably carried, driven in a car with, and opened a growler with this kind of pressure in it. I bet the number of people who have done that far exceeds the number of people who have attempted to bottle condition in a growler, which is where most growler bombs seem to come from.

Now imagine if the growler in the test above had been filled with a counter pressure growler filler. That 30psi would likely be higher due to less CO2 lost during filling.
 
Of course we know that the pressure inside a freshly filled growler at serving temperature is going to be very close to the pressure used to carbonate/serve a beer (most likely it will be slightly lower due to headspace and some carbonation lost during growler filling), but I never thought that such a slight rise in temperature could cause a filled growler to be anywhere near 30psi.

If you know the pressure is going to be close to the carbonation pressure, you should expect it to be near 30 psi as it warms up, as any kegging carb chart or calculator would tell you. His data is nice, but it's nothing unexpected.

I've gotten tons of growlers filled, and I've always gotten them into the fridge ASAP. I just try to keep things as safe as I can. I don't have much of a concern about filled growlers as long as they're kept cold. In fact, one of my local brewpubs warns me every time I grab a growler of their hefe that if I let it come to room temp it might burst.

I really try not to pressurize anything that doesn't have a pressure rating associated with it. When I use an air compressor, everything from the tank to the tubing to the valves to my car tire all have pressure ratings. My CO2 cylinder has a pressure rating, the regulator, the tubing, the kegs themselves, etc.

As previously posted, my point is that the pressure rating of a Sanke keg is not determined by the manufacturer of the coupler, and in the same manner the pressure rating of a growler should not be determined by the manufacturer of a growler saver cap.

It is true that many regular glass beer bottles don't have a pressure rating, and most homebrewers use a mix of beer bottles from different brewers and manufacturers so it would be hard to track down an actual rating for eac one. But some manufacturers do provide pressure ratings for the bottles (I've seen 45 psi before), which should be fine for 3 volumes of CO2 provided you keep the bottles below 80 degrees F.

Even without that pressure rating, all our anecdotal evidence demonstrates that a properly treated beer bottle won't explode at normal carb levels and temperatures. For growlers, with a thinner wall at the neck compared to a beer bottle, there's much more anecdotal evidence for them bursting during bottle conditioning or even just cleaning, and there are warnings against it from some vendors. That's enough for me to stay away.

Again, I have nothing against the Growler Saver product. I like the design, and I appreciate the PRV. I just wish we could get a growler manufacturer to give us a pressure rating.
 
what about including the actual growler with the cap, one that you know can hold the pressure? That way you know that the customer not using one that could be compromised based on inferior materials, manufacture, etc.

Might be good to get together with that dude selling stainless growlers...
 
what about including the actual growler with the cap, one that you know can hold the pressure? That way you know that the customer not using one that could be compromised based on inferior materials, manufacture, etc.

Might be good to get together with that dude selling stainless growlers...

I could definitely get behind that :mug:
 
30PSI at 55 dgrees would mean that beer had almost 3.2 volumes of CO2 "after it was filled from tap at a local establishment." :eek:


. . . just sayin'
 
Got a sample cap in my hands yesterday from Steve. We'll be doing our own testing at the LHBS I work at over the next week or so.
 
Any update on the tests from your sample cap Gitmoe?

Nope. I've been way too busy at the shop and with my personal side business since we got the cap. I don't know if anybody at the shop had a chance to use it either. At least nobody said anything. It looks great sitting on my boss' desk though...
 
FWIW, as a distributor of the product, I can tell you that the relief valve is stamped as 15psi. Anything in excess of this level will vent off. So, one could argue that it is also a safeguard AGAINST excessive pressure buildup in the headspace of a warming growler as the CO2 solubility decreases and the gas leaves solution.

So, while the product is designed to keep beer carbonated at a level fitting most beer styles, and performs admirably at beer storing and serving temperatures, it may arguably help prevent an "incident" if, for instance, the user forgot about their filled growler and left it in their car in the middle of the summer. That is not the primary purpose of the device, but a rather nice side-effect of the relief valve feature.

Hope this helps.
 
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