Is my Märzenbier going to ferment?

[robertkerr79]

This is the first time I've brewed using my new (old) fermentation fridge.

I pitched my WLP820 Oktoberfest/Märzen Lager Yeast BB nearly 48 hours ago and haven't had any action in the airlock yet. I pitched at 10°C.

I've brewed a lot of IPAs in the past and they'd usually have got going by now. I also usually make a starter, but wasn't organised enough to do so on this occasion.

Time to panic?

 

[matt_m]

I'm doing a late Oktoberfest as well and mine took a solid 24 hours to show any hint of blowoff activity with Imperial L17 pitched at 52F. I'm used to more like 12 hours with their A07 in ales in the mid 60's. Even now almost 36 hours later the activity is slow compared to what I'm used to. I probably wouldn't panic yet.

 

[Miraculix]

If you have a normally sized batch, you underpitched significantly. This will be a problematic ferment, I would raise the temperature till I see signs of fermentation and pitch more yeast. Preferably the same that was pitched initially. Otherwise any lager yeast would do.

 

[AlexKay]

As Miraculix says, without a starter this is an underpitch (especially because lagers need more yeast than ales!) I'd wait it out, though. Definitely don't panic. It might be chugging along in another 24-48 hours. Also, airlock bubbles aren't a great indicator of fermentation; you may just have a small leak in your fermenter.

It wouldn't be crazy to throw a pack or two of W34/70 in, if it's easy to get your hands on. If it were me, though, I'd just hold tight.

 

[Miraculix]

As Miraculix says, without a starter this is an underpitch (especially because lagers need more yeast than ales!) I'd wait it out, though. Definitely don't panic. It might be chugging along in another 24-48 hours. Also, airlock bubbles aren't a great indicator of fermentation; you may just have a small leak in your fermenter.

It wouldn't be crazy to throw a pack or two of W34/70 in, if it's easy to get your hands on. If it were me, though, I'd just hold tight.

It's the underpitch that's the biggest problem. If it starts to ferment actively, this problem has not been solved, all the problems that might follow from this will still be there.

Adding more yeast is a must of you ask me. Your 3470 addition would be a valid option to solve this main issue.

 

[robertkerr79]

Thanks all. I'll probably pitch another lager yeast. Given I'll be lagering for at least 8 weeks it's not exactly going to ruin the schedule.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks all. I'll probably pitch another lager yeast. Given I'll be lagering for at least 8 weeks it's not exactly going to ruin the schedule.

Asap! The longer the lag, the higher the chance of it turning out bad.

 

[dmtaylor]

WLP820 is a crap yeast that should not be sold. There, I said it -- again. Pitch something else in there immediately.

Seriously, any other lager yeast in the universe is better than that one. WLP820 is laggy, a poor performer, and a poor attenuator. If you are very patient with it and assuming it does start fermenting soon, expect your FG to get no lower than about 1.018.

I'm using mostly dried yeasts these days, in particular Diamond and S-189. I should try W-34/70 again sometime, a lot of people like it, but I am not sure about it yet. Or for other great liquid yeasts, try WLP833, WLP830, or Wyeast 2206 and 2308. And there are many others, all of which are better than WLP820.

 

[robertkerr79]

WLP820 is a crap yeast that should not be sold. There, I said it -- again. Pitch something else in there immediately.

Seriously, any other lager yeast in the universe is better than that one. WLP820 is laggy, a poor performer, and a poor attenuator. If you are very patient with it and assuming it does start fermenting soon, expect your FG to get no lower than about 1.018.

I'm using mostly dried yeasts these days, in particular Diamond and S-189. I should try W-34/70 again sometime, a lot of people like it, but I am not sure about it yet. Or for other great liquid yeasts, try WLP833, WLP830, or Wyeast 2206 and 2308. And there are many others, all of which are better than WLP820.

Thanks Dave. Good to know.

 

[odie]

I typically pitch at the upper end of the temp range for whatever yeast I am using. Then place it in my ferm chamber. By the time the yeast have woken up and started, the fermenter has dropped to my target temperature.

I figure a little warmer give the yeast a boost at the front end. And then it does it's thing at the desired temps as the ferm chamber bring the wort down to the set temp.

 

[Slim M]

Have you cracked the lid and looked for krausen or action of any kind? I have had fermentation go by without seeing much activity in the airlock. I’ve learned to stop looking at that so much.

Usually if you have it in a fermentation chamber or fridge you can smell them suckers working. When you first open the door get a whiff and see, I know sound silly but try it out. I had brew bucket that wasn’t very tight fitting I guess at the lid and almost never bubbled in the airlock but alway hit fg in timely manner with no issues.

 

[Protos]

Diamond and S-189. I should try W-34/70 again sometime, a lot of people like it, but I am not sure about it yet.

You are totally right about being not sure about W34/70. Both Diamond and S-189 are immensely better than W34/70 (at least its dried form from Fermentis). Not a bad yeast per se, just very boring and bland. Though it gives little esters and Sulphur, it gives very little distinct Lager character too. Some like it exactly for that, I suppose.

 

[AlexKay]

You are totally right about being not sure about W34/70. Both Diamond and S-189 are immensely better than W34/70 (at least its dried form from Fermentis). Not a bad yeast per se, just very boring and bland. Though it gives little esters and Sulphur, it gives very little distinct Lager character too. Some like it exactly for that, I suppose.

There are certainly beers where you want the yeast to get out of the way, and W34/70 is very, very easy to ferment with. I've been very happy with it for doppelbock, rauchbier, Baltic porter ... basically, most malt-forward lagers where you're looking for a clean fermentation profile.

 

[Protos]

Yep, that's what I mean. Some like it exactly for that.
It's not that I haven't had good experience with Fermentis W34/70, but it was limited exclusively to the strong malty beers, exactly those which you list: Dunkelbocks, Maibocks, Doppelbocks, Rauchbocks. A stronger Märzenbier might work too, although I've been unimpressed with mine. Light Pilsners and Helles... just meh.
And even in those stronger beers, where W34/70 was good, S-189 was way better. YMMV.

 

[dmtaylor]

W-34/70 lovers can continue paying $7.99 per pack all they want, I don't care. I'll use Diamond for $5.99, save a couple bucks, AND *probably* generally make a better tasting lager. Two dollars might not be much, but... it's still two dollars.

I looked up S-189 and it too is the higher $7.99. So I guess, then, I finally know what my favorite dry lager yeast is, don't I.

And WLP820 is $10.99. Sheesh. I'm sorry I looked!

Cheers all.

 

[Protos]

I'd say, for certain tasks S-189 is essential and irreplaceable. In strong beers it's superior to any other dry yeast, including M76/Diamond.
In light beers, I find it quite unremarkable, little better than W34/70. For light Lagers, M76/Diamond/S23/M84 are the best (my personal preference is S23, but whatever).
So, as long as there's a yeast for any particular style, we'll have to buy all of them whatever's the price.
Even Fermentis W34/70 has its place: it's close to the Carlsberg strain and it makes decent strong beers, so I can't think of another yeast to ferment Calsberg Elefant, for example. Also, it's the closest dry thing to the strains used in classic American Lagers, which have to be different from the German Lagers exactly by being cleaner and blander.

"Let a Thousand Flowers Bloom", as Maozedong used to say

 

[Slim M]

W-34/70 lovers can continue paying $7.99 per pack all they want, I don't care. I'll use Diamond for $5.99, save a couple bucks, AND *probably* generally make a better tasting lager. Two dollars might not be much, but... it's still two dollars.

I looked up S-189 and it too is the higher $7.99. So I guess, then, I finally know what my favorite dry lager yeast is, don't I.

And WLP820 is $10.99. Sheesh. I'm sorry I looked!

Cheers all.

Yep I’m going to see if Diamond will do what W-34/70 was doing for me for a few bucks cheaper. I had pretty good luck recently fermenting with W-34/70 going a few days at 62f and bumping up to 67 for about 4 days then off to the keg. Plenty clean enough for me after a few weeks cold conditioning in the keg. I’ve got a feeling Diamond will do just as well.

 

[Slim M]

I'd say, for certain tasks S-189 is essential and irreplaceable. In strong beers it's superior to any other dry yeast, including M76/Diamond.
In light beers, I find it quite unremarkable, little better than W34/70. For light Lagers, M76/Diamond/S23/M84 are the best (my personal preference is S23, but whatever).
So, as long as there's a yeast for any particular style, we'll have to buy all of them whatever's the price.
Even Fermentis W34/70 has its place: it's close to the Carlsberg strain and it makes decent strong beers, so I can't think of another yeast to ferment Calsberg Elefant, for example. Also, it's the closest dry thing to the strains used in classic American Lagers, which have to be different from the German Lagers exactly by being cleaner and blander.

"Let a Thousand Flowers Bloom", as Maozedong used to say

I’ve never tried S-23 that I can remember. It does not see much love in the forums. I’ve thought about trying warm. ( 60’s ) like I’ve done with 34/70 but just haven’t.

 

[Protos]

S-23 is a finicky yeast. It likes warmer fermentation temperatures but easily goes astray in the ester department. There's a very fine line between fermenting it warmer and not getting an "ale" character. It's all trials and errors before you find the right balance, hence not much love, I think.

 

[Andre3000]

I know everyone is singing diamonds praises lately but I've been doing split batch pilsners with Escarpment and dry yeasts, w34/70 and diamond. Every time the liquid yeasts win hands down. And I do believe I prefer w34/70 to diamond.

This testing has basically solidified my preference for liquid. All subjective of course.

 

[Slim M]

I know everyone is singing diamonds praises lately but I've been doing split batch pilsners with Escarpment and dry yeasts, w34/70 and diamond. Every time the liquid yeasts win hands down. And I do believe I prefer w34/70 to diamond.

This testing has basically solidified my preference for liquid. All subjective of course.

Yeah but sometimes liquid isn’t doable in the summer for some and not everyone has a lhbs with in a reasonable distance. Sometimes plan b is better than not at all.

 

[robertkerr79]

Got me some M76 and am making a starter before I pitch at 14°C. Still no activity of any sort after 3 days so hopefully this'll get it going.

 

[Miraculix]

Got me some M76 and am making a starter before I pitch at 14°C. Still no activity of any sort after 3 days so hopefully this'll get it going.

Dry yeast doesn't need a starter, which part of "pitch it asap!" Didn't you understand ? Just throw it in!

Two packs of mj would have been best but one pack is still way better than nothing.

Every second your wort spends with insufficient amount of yeast enhances the number of unwanted microorganisms and the effects of the stressed yeast already in there. They need yeast buddies to help them out with the overwhelming amount of fermentables and to fight the other bugs that try to get their share.

 

[Slim M]

Got me some M76 and am making a starter before I pitch at 14°C. Still no activity of any sort after 3 days so hopefully this'll get it going.

What are you fermenting in carboy, bucket, or conical? When you had the lid off no bubbly foam of any kind on top?

 

[robertkerr79]

What are you fermenting in carboy, bucket, or conical? When you had the lid off no bubbly foam of any kind on top?

Bucket. No foam.

 

[Miraculix]

Now that you already started the starter, I would wait till the starter is going strong and then throw in the entire starter. Basically like a vitality starter. Should take just a few hours.

 

[Beermeister32]

At this point, get whatever lager yeast you can into the bucket or carboy. Type of lager yeast not important now, just get it in. Lager yeasts don’t have as wide a characteristics difference than ales, so any would do. Just get it in.

 

[Miraculix]

And most importantly, once the beer is finished and you crack the first bottle,

LET US KNOW HOW IT WENT!!!!

 

[Bobby_M]

W-34/70 lovers can continue paying $7.99 per pack all they want, I don't care. I'll use Diamond for $5.99, save a couple bucks, AND *probably* generally make a better tasting lager. Two dollars might not be much, but... it's still two dollars.

I looked up S-189 and it too is the higher $7.99. So I guess, then, I finally know what my favorite dry lager yeast is, don't I.

And WLP820 is $10.99. Sheesh. I'm sorry I looked!

Cheers all.

Only if you shop at places that bake the shipping costs into the products.

 

[Slim M]

W-34/70 lovers can continue paying $7.99 per pack all they want, I don't care. I'll use Diamond for $5.99, save a couple bucks, AND *probably* generally make a better tasting lager. Two dollars might not be much, but... it's still two dollars.

I looked up S-189 and it too is the higher $7.99. So I guess, then, I finally know what my favorite dry lager yeast is, don't I.

And WLP820 is $10.99. Sheesh. I'm sorry I looked!

Cheers all.

Try CellarScience German I have a feeling it’s 34/70. 12g is usually less than $5. Less money and an extra bit of yeast. I’ve had good luck so far.

 

[Beermeister32]

Two bucks? That’s one can of beer. I’d buy what you want.

 

[robertkerr79]

OK folks, it's had 8 weeks in the fermenting fridge, 3 weeks in the bottle and 4 days in the fridge. The results... it's delicious.

It seems like the WLP820 and M76 were able to put their differences aside and work together. Unfortunately, I smashed my hydrometer shortly before I was planning to take an FG reading but it feels like it's about the right strength and has a lovely malty sweetness to it.

I tend to struggle to condition at the optimal temperature this time of year, so the carbonation's not perfect. With a bigger head and a proper stein I'd be onto something.

Thanks all for your help.
Cheers!

 

[passedpawn]

Ah, a happy ending. I'll drop this here anyway in case of later searches.

 

[Beermeister32]

Looks fantastic!