I should have needed a starter but I didn't ! why ?

[Geoffrey006]

Hello,

I brewed on April 20th an ale with an OG of 1.046.
I pitched my 23L of wort (6 gallons) with only 1 pack WLP-029 liquid yeast and without doing a starter.
The fermentation started slow (no activity for 36/48h), but finished today at 1.010 after 7 days of active fermentation.
I fermented at 16/17°C (61/62°F)

I didn't know before, but I just looked at starter calculators, and the calculators are saying that I should have needed else 3 full packs of yeast, else 5L of starter.

How could my fermentation goes so well, if I under-pitched that much ?
What could be the consequences ? Too much esters ?

 

[thehaze]

Underpitching can result in increased esters, but I can't imagine that strain giving too much fruitiness or otherwise, that would come off as inapropriate. Underpirch can also result in off-flavours, or so they say. I have yet to experience this particular consequence.

There is a whole movement/school of thought behind yeast starters, and why, what, how, when, etc. you need a lot of it. I don't think you underpitched that much.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't think you used your starter calculators correctly. I just checked the one I use and for intermittent shaking it requires less than a 1.5L starter.
http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

Starter give you optimum cell counts so that the yeast can start fermenting the wort right away instead of having to reproduce to cell counts needed. This is the time when off flavors can be created. A starter isn't really done just to get to your predicted FG. It is to give your beer the best chance to have the flavors intended.

Any small amount of yeast will ferment your beer eventually. It might not get to your expected FG.
What you want is to pitch a proper amount of healthy yeast that is ready to go.
Your lag time shows that you underpitched a little.

From White Labs. "it performs exceptionally well at temperatures ranging from 65° to 69°F (18-20°C) and does not ferment well below 62°F (17°C) after peak fermentation."

 

[Bassman2003]

This topic brings in a little mix of the professional brewing world which does not always apply. As you have seen with your beer, the yeast will get there in the end. It is all about time and stress.

My experience with direct pitching is exactly your experience, long lag times. To me this is a large negative as your beer is sitting there at its most vulnerable point in terms of infection risk and if you add any oxygen it will be lost be the time the yeast perk up to use it.

The more yeast you have to gang up on the wort the less the have any stress. Less stress means more predictable behavior and true flavors. From the pro brewer point of view, they want fermentation to be as quick as possible to move beer through the brewery. So they pitch at high rates. 3 day fermentations are common with a transfer to the next vessel. That is not a part of most homebrewer's world.

I have found a middle ground of making 2 liter starters the night before for ales and 2, 2 liter starters for lagers a few days before. This gives me some cell growth and lets the yeast hit the wort running. Short lags and decent fermentation times with only buying one packet of yeast. I also pressure can my starter wort so making the starters is as easy as possible.

Fresh yeast is also important. My LHBS told me Omega yeast is really working hard to get the freshest yeast out to homebrew shops be send directly from the their facility rather than through a distributor. I just tried their West Coast ale 1 and it ripped through fermentation. So I agree.

Hope this helps.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The fermentation started slow (no activity for 36/48h), but finished today at 1.010 after 7 days of active fermentation...How could my fermentation goes so well, if I under-pitched that much?

36 to 48 hours? I am really stressed out right now because yesterday I brewed a 5 gal batch of Dubbel, split it into 2 fermenters, and direct pitched a pack of WLP500 into one and WLP530 into the other...and 28 hours after pitching I have zero signs of fermentation. I am used to solid fermentation in 12 to 24 hours. I am fine with more esters in this beer...but don't really want to run out for another $18 worth of yeast!

 

[BrewingAroundtheRrealm]

36 to 48 hours? I am really stressed out right now because yesterday I brewed a 5 gal batch of Dubbel, split it into 2 fermenters, and direct pitched a pack of WLP500 into one and WLP530 into the other...and 28 hours after pitching I have zero signs of fermentation. I am used to solid fermentation in 12 to 24 hours. I am fine with more esters in this beer...but don't really want to run out for another $18 worth of yeast!

You are fine. It may take a few days for fermentation to start with direct pitch. Just wait it out. It's happened to all of us at some point.

 

[mongoose33]

Hello,

I brewed on April 20th an ale with an OG of 1.046.
I pitched my 23L of wort (6 gallons) with only 1 pack WLP-029 liquid yeast and without doing a starter.
The fermentation started slow (no activity for 36/48h), but finished today at 1.010 after 7 days of active fermentation.
I fermented at 16/17°C (61/62°F)

I didn't know before, but I just looked at starter calculators, and the calculators are saying that I should have needed else 3 full packs of yeast, else 5L of starter.

How could my fermentation goes so well, if I under-pitched that much ?
What could be the consequences ? Too much esters ?

I went to the BYO Beer Boot Camp in Asheville in March; took two Yeast workshops, one taught by Chris White himself--the guy who founded White Labs.

Hang on to your hat: he says he'd just add a tube of yeast to wort with no starter, unless it was a big beer.

I am not quite ready to do that myself--I have my reasons for doing a starter, one of which is a quick takeoff of fermentation and getting the yeast to use the oxygen in the wort fast--but unless it's a gross underpitch, I can see his point.

BTW, according to the White Labs site, you're at the low end of fermentation temps for this yeast: "it performs exceptionally well at temperatures ranging from 65° to 69°F (18-20°C) and does not ferment well below 62°F (17°C) after peak fermentation."

 

[CascadesBrewer]

You are fine. It may take a few days for fermentation to start with direct pitch. Just wait it out. It's happened to all of us at some point.

After about 40 hours my batch with WLP500 started to show signs and 9 hours later it is bubbling away at a decent (but restrained) pace. I think I see a few bubbles in the WLP530 batch, so hopefully in the morning I see solid signs.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Hang on to your hat: he says he'd just add a tube of yeast to wort with no starter, unless it was a big beer.

It is always hard to tell how much to trust somebody in a position like Chris White. Clearly he has an interest in White Labs and it is hard to tell people they need to make a starter if other yeast companies are spinning that they can be direct pitched. Chris knows his stuff and I have seen him advocating home brewers harvest and repitch yeast, so he is not always just trying to sell more tubes of his product.

 

[Stand]

After about 40 hours my batch with WLP500 started to show signs and 9 hours later it is bubbling away at a decent (but restrained) pace. I think I see a few bubbles in the WLP530 batch, so hopefully in the morning I see solid signs.

Just wait. 530 will probably blow out your fermenter by the morning. Make sure you have a blow off. I have never seen a yeast form krausen as fast and furious.

Belgian yeasts are prone to slow starts, and under pitching is one of many ways to get the Belgian character.

Cheers!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just wait. 530 will probably blow out your fermenter by the morning. Make sure you have a blow off. I have never seen a yeast form krausen as fast and furious.

Belgian yeasts are prone to slow starts, and under pitching is one of many ways to get the Belgian character.

Cheers!

RDWHAHB I guess! About 40 hours for one to get started and 60 hours for the second one. I guess that was less than 3 days but man it seemed like forever!! I have been brewing for a long time and I don't ever recall that much lag...but given that I got these packs mail order and due to a delay the package was with FedEx for 2 nights, I should have made a starter. I expect these will be the best beers I have ever made, and I will never quite be able to reproduce the fermentation character.

 

[Bassman2003]

My hatred of long lag times pushes me to make starters every time! Sucks but probably not a problem.

 

[mongoose33]

It is always hard to tell how much to trust somebody in a position like Chris White. Clearly he has an interest in White Labs and it is hard to tell people they need to make a starter if other yeast companies are spinning that they can be direct pitched. Chris knows his stuff and I have seen him advocating home brewers harvest and repitch yeast, so he is not always just trying to sell more tubes of his product.

That's a fair observation. Can you really trust people to tell you things that might go against their economic interests? Sometimes you can, sometimes not.

In Chris White's case, he was absolutely open to questions of all types during the workshop, and there was no evidence I could see that he fudged his answers at all. But who knows?

I was especially interested in the yeast workshops because it's the place I'm the least conversant with. Oh, I know a fair amount I suppose, but when you have a chance to be taught by a guy who makes his living from yeast....

And I still will tend to do starters. I have my reasons. My son, who is a microbiologist and also a brewer, says every brew is infected. Dust carries bacteria, you can't keep it out without huge equipment investments, and thus, your wort will have bacteria in it. The key is to get the yeast to outcompete it before it starts producing enough off-flavors to matter.

A 40-hour lag just makes me cringe. I want the yeast to get going fast, and I want that yeast use up the oxygen I just added to the wort, instead of long lags allowing that oxygen to oxidize flavor compounds in the hops and grain.

But that's me. There's an opposite side of that coin, and it has to do with what many have described as the brewing process being robust. You have to work to screw it up, and provided you haven't made a major error, you're going to get beer, and probably decent beer. And so, the idea of pitching the yeast without a starter works in that context.

In my case, I'm trying to wring that last few percentage points of quality out of my beer. I know that's a weird way of putting it, but I'm trying to get as close to perfect as I can, knowing I can never achieve it.

Your mileage, as always, may and will vary.

 

[mongoose33]

RDWHAHB I guess! About 40 hours for one to get started and 60 hours for the second one. I guess that was less than 3 days but man it seemed like forever!! I have been brewing for a long time and I don't ever recall that much lag...but given that I got these packs mail order and due to a delay the package was with FedEx for 2 nights, I should have made a starter. I expect these will be the best beers I have ever made, and I will never quite be able to reproduce the fermentation character.

Funny, that last part.

About a year and a half ago I made an amber which remains the best beer I've ever produced. Mystical. Had it Christmas Eve, family over, all the wine drinkers switched to it. When you can make a beer that causes the wine drinkers to select that beer instead of wine........it's not just a home run, it's a grand slam.

Damned if I can figure out what I did that was different. My notes, predictably, are sketchy. I've made several batches since, none have risen to that level of mysticism.

But I keep searching. It's my white whale.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

In Chris White's case, he was absolutely open to questions of all types during the workshop, and there was no evidence I could see that he fudged his answers at all. But who knows?

The little knowledge I have of Chris White (some info from him over the years and a recent 1 hour session that I watched) he does seem like an honest guy trying to make a great product for the pro and home brewer market.

And I still will tend to do starters. I have my reasons. My son, who is a microbiologist and also a brewer, says every brew is infected. Dust carries bacteria, you can't keep it out without huge equipment investments, and thus, your wort will have bacteria in it. The key is to get the yeast to outcompete it before it starts producing enough off-flavors to matter.

I would be really interested in seeing my beer under a microscope. I like to think that I make very clean beer, but I am sure there is some level of contamination in each batch. I am also curious how repitching yeast slurry impacts this...if the level of contamination grows each batch or if pitching a large amount of yeast reduces the contamination level.