How does non innoculated fermentation work

[Jokester]

I am hearing a lot about some of the beverages on my bucket list (Feni, urrak, coconut toddy and palm toddy) are not fermented with added yeast. As in, coconut and palm toddy are just sap that flows out that have not had lime added to them so it ferments between the times they gather it ~12 hrs.
Urrak/Feni OTOH is a juice of cashew fruit, again fermented without added yeast. and its distilled 1 or 2 times.
While googling natural fermentation, I discover that wine also has wild yeast but they also innoculate it in most cases.
So in all those cases, how do they prevent bacteria from making vinegar.

 

[marc1]

I am hearing a lot about some of the beverages on my bucket list (Feni, urrak, coconut toddy and palm toddy) are not fermented with added yeast. As in, coconut and palm toddy are just sap that flows out that have not had lime added to them so it ferments between the times they gather it ~12 hrs.
Urrak/Feni OTOH is a juice of cashew fruit, again fermented without added yeast. and its distilled 1 or 2 times.
While googling natural fermentation, I discover that wine also has wild yeast but they also innoculate it in most cases.
So in all those cases, how do they prevent bacteria from making vinegar.

A lot of wine makers will add sulfites to kill off the potential contaminating microbes. Then after it has had some time to dissipate, add their preferred wine yeast, which, IIRC, is also somewhat resistant to sulfates.

 

[Miraculix]

I am hearing a lot about some of the beverages on my bucket list (Feni, urrak, coconut toddy and palm toddy) are not fermented with added yeast. As in, coconut and palm toddy are just sap that flows out that have not had lime added to them so it ferments between the times they gather it ~12 hrs.
Urrak/Feni OTOH is a juice of cashew fruit, again fermented without added yeast. and its distilled 1 or 2 times.
While googling natural fermentation, I discover that wine also has wild yeast but they also innoculate it in most cases.
So in all those cases, how do they prevent bacteria from making vinegar.

Vinegar production requires oxygen. An airlock prevents it's creation.

 

[Jokester]

Vinegar production requires oxygen. An airlock prevents it's creation.

Toddy ferments in an open clay pot on the tree branch, or in the case of urrak and feni a slightly closed clay pot 1/2 in the ground and 1/2 out of it - AKA ancient temperature control ?? No airlock within a mile of these.
BTW you'd find ants and bees and twigs and everything that lives in a tree in a pot of toddy. They filter it out a couple times. You can say its double filtered LOL.

 

[Jokester]

A lot of wine makers will add sulfites to kill off the potential contaminating microbes. Then after it has had some time to dissipate, add their preferred wine yeast, which, IIRC, is also somewhat resistant to sulfates.

I dont think they add it explicitly, unless the palm, coconut sap or cashew fruit juice naturally has it.
Cashew nuts which are classified as a fruit have a sheath on them that needs to be burned off before the nut can even be eaten. However the fruit is edible and they were selling it on the streets in India.
Sadly I missed the only chance I had to eat it because I was hunting for something else that day, then I forgot then ... well I am back in US now.

 

[Miraculix]

Toddy ferments in an open clay pot on the tree branch, or in the case of urrak and feni a slightly closed clay pot 1/2 in the ground and 1/2 out of it - AKA ancient temperature control ?? No airlock within a mile of these.

The Alcohol must be there, to create vinegar, vinegar prduction is based on alcohol. So first the yeast creates the alcohol and has a big headstart. Once the alcohol is there, acedobacter start to build up, if sufficient oxygen is available. That is when it turns into vinegar.

 

[Jokester]

The Alcohol must be there, to create vinegar, vinegar prduction is based on alcohol. So first the yeast creates the alcohol and has a big headstart. Once the alcohol is there, acedobacter start to build up, if sufficient oxygen is available. That is when it turns into vinegar.

OK that makes sense, and at some level I have known it due to my failed attempts to make apple juice into apple cider vinegar. I have no problem making it to applewine, but I fail at vinegar. Now I know why.

Ofcourse I have a kombucha batch I have succesfully made using a scoby I bought off a local expert which was the size of a dinner plate and 1" thick. Man did it make quick work of the sweet tea I fed it. Some how I didn't connect the dots.

 

[Miraculix]

OK that makes sense, and at some level I have known it due to my failed attempts to make apple juice into apple cider vinegar. I have no problem making it to applewine, but I fail at vinegar. Now I know why.

Ofcourse I have a kombucha batch I have succesfully made using a scoby I bought off a local expert which was the size of a dinner plate and 1" thick. Man did it make quick work of the sweet tea I fed it. Some how I didn't connect the dots.

Kombucha is mainly lactic acid fermentation, these lactic acid bacteria turn sugar into lactic acid. Then there are also yeasts which turn the sugar into alcohol and then there are also some acedobacter which are turning the alcohol into vinegar, all at the same time. Judged by the taste, I would say that most of the acid is lactic acid in kombucha. It does not taste like vinegar to me.

 

[Jokester]

Kombucha is mainly lactic acid fermentation, these lactic acid bacteria turn sugar into lactic acid. Then there are also yeasts which turn the sugar into alcohol and then there are also some acedobacter which are turning the alcohol into vinegar, all at the same time. Judged by the taste, I would say that most of the acid is lactic acid in kombucha. It does not taste like vinegar to me.

I forgot what I added to the apple juice trying to make vinegar. I think I added yogurt liquid. Didn't work, in fact after 5 yrs I still see no vinegar, just a slightly less sweet apple juice.
The kombucha turned out great but I used a scoby I bought from an expert locally.

 

[bracconiere]

Kombucha is mainly lactic acid fermentation, these lactic acid bacteria turn sugar into lactic acid. Then there are also yeasts which turn the sugar into alcohol and then there are also some acedobacter which are turning the alcohol into vinegar, all at the same time. Judged by the taste, I would say that most of the acid is lactic acid in kombucha. It does not taste like vinegar to me.

i thought, i've heard, kombucha turns the vinegar into acetate esters? that's why it doesn't taste vinegary?

edit: i've never had these 'natural' drinks. what do they taste like? i know you can get perfectly good sour dough starter homemade, which will leaven bread just fine...but with 'twang' to it....

 

[Jokester]

Kombucha tastes sour. No idea what the acetate esters taste like. Mine was vinegary/lemony/sour. Does that depend on the scoby ?

 

[Miraculix]

i thought, i've heard, kombucha turns the vinegar into acetate esters? that's why it doesn't taste vinegary?

edit: i've never had these 'natural' drinks. what do they taste like? i know you can get perfectly good sour dough starter homemade, which will leaven bread just fine...but with 'twang' to it....

I think kombucha turns actually everything into everything

It's such a wild mix of different types of microorganisms, and there are probably also aerobic and anaerobic zones in the ferment, so it's pretty much everything happening at once.

 

[NewJersey]

This thread seems counter to what I've always read about beer- even stored properly it will EVENTUALLY break down into vinegar (7-8 or 10+ years)

 

[Miraculix]

This thread seems counter to what I've always read about beer- even stored properly it will EVENTUALLY break down into vinegar (7-8 or 10+ years)

No bottle is fully oxygen prove.