Hoppy Saison

[Stand]

I'm working on a low ABV Saison/Grisette, and I was wondering if anybody has made something like this and had any advice?

It's my first attempt, and I just don't know how American hops like Centennial will play with Belgian yeasts. I have Cascade and Citra on-hand as well if those might play better.

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Name of Brew: Cloud Solo Grisette (DECK)
Entry Category: Saison	Type: All Grain
Category Number: 25	Subcategory Letter: B
Starting Gravity: 1.042 SG	Batch Size: 10.50 gal
Final Gravity: 1.008 SG	Mash Profile: Grisette
Hops Used​
​ Hops Used Amt​ Name​ Type​ #​ %/IBU​ 15.00 g​ Merkur (Hallertauer Merkur) [13.60 %] - Boil 60.0 min​ Hop​ 9​ 14.7 IBUs​ 30.00 g​ Centennial 2017 [9.70 %] - Boil 5.0 min​ Hop​ 10​ 3.8 IBUs​ 30.00 g​ Crystal [5.70 %] - Boil 5.0 min​ Hop​ 11​ 2.5 IBUs​ 30.00 g​ Centennial 2017 [9.70 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days​ Hop​ 14​ 0.0 IBUs​ 30.00 g​ Crystal [5.70 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days​ Hop​ 15​ 0.0 IBUs​
Grains Used​
​ Fermentables Amt​ Name​ Type​ #​ %/IBU​ 11 lbs​ Swaen©Pilsner (1.9 SRM)​ Grain​ 5​ 73.3 %​ 1 lbs 8.0 oz​ Viking Wheat Malt (3.0 SRM)​ Grain​ 6​ 10.0 %​ 1 lbs 8.0 oz​ White Wheat, Unmalted (Briess) (2.0 SRM)​ Grain​ 7​ 10.0 %​ 1 lbs​ Viking Munich Malt Light (8.1 SRM)​ Grain​ 8​ 6.7 %​
Other Ingredients Used​
​ Misc Ingredients Amt​ Name​ Type​ #​ %/IBU​ 8.00 g​ Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins)​ Water Agent​ 2​ -​ 6.00 g​ Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins)​ Water Agent​ 3​ -​ 4.00 g​ Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins)​ Water Agent​ 4​ -​
Yeast Used​
​ Yeasts Used Amt​ Name​ Type​ #​ %/IBU​ 1.0 pkg​ Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522) [124.21 ml]​ Yeast​ 12​ -​ 1.0 pkg​ French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml]​ Yeast​ 13​

 

[thehaze]

It looks fine, but two things stick out to me: OG and FG, both being too high. If your beer starts at 1.057, then it will go down to something like 1.007-1.004 - 'cause of the yeasts' attenuation - and your Saison will be at least 6.5% ABV. That's fine, if you want a high ABV Saison, but for a " low ABV Saison/Grisette " as you call it, that's too much. Low ABV means ( for me ) low 5% and definitely under 5%. I would shoot for an OG, not higher than 1.045-1.047.

American hops will work. They can overtake the beer, when using too much. Citra and Centennial will work fine together for a heftier dry hop. Depending on your packaging capabilities and abilities, the dry hop, will go away after some time, and the Saison will shine more at that point. But there is nothing wrong with a hoppy/dry hopped approach. You will still be able to condition and " keep " your Saison for a few months, but don't expect the dry hop to stick around for long.

For me personally, seeing you are doing a 10 gal batch, that amount of hops will not make your Saison hoppy. You have so little hops for 10 gal. My latest Grisette used 10.5 oz of hops ( 300 gr ) for 24 liters with no dry hop. Also, 20 IBUs is low. You want more. Again, my personal taste would raise IBUs to around 30 for that beer in its present state. However, I would want more should the final beer land on a hefty 6.5-7% ABV.

Regarding water treatment: why so much Epsom salts? If you want sulfates, simply use more Gypsum. Too much Mg can make its presence felt in a beer. In the mash, shoot for anything between 1 to 15 ppm of Mg. Otherwise, it looks good. I too prefer more gypsum in my Saisons.

 

[Stand]

I'm honestly not sure what I did wrong in posting. The recipe is right, but the OG number is wrong. I'm aiming to keep it under 4.5%. Beersmith says it should be 4.4%, but I think you're right it will go lower than that. I've only made one Saison, and it was bigger than this, but it dropped to 1.000. I edited the numbers in original post to make that right.

My base water has 4ppm Mg, so I add as little Epsom as possible to get it to 10ppm.

I'll up the bitterness for sure. You can still tell it's a Saison/Grisette with that many hops? I keg and cold-store all my beer, so it will never be kept at room temp after fermentation is done. I've had good luck keeping a strong presence in my Trappist Singles which are on the hoppier side.

What would you say is the balancing point? How much of your additions are late?

 

[thehaze]

The latest one with the 300 grams, had a combo of Motueka ( 6% AA ), Taiheke ( 6.4% AA ) and Wai-Iti ( 1.8 % AA ), so not incredibly potent - not on par with the likes of Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc. I had around 10 grams at 60 minutes, and then around 20 grams every 5 minutes, starting from 25 minutes down to flameout and whirlpool. The hops were around 10 gr/l, which does not sound that much. I started boil with around 33 liters in my Grainfather, which is why I landed on 10 gr/l. Overall, I don't think 10 gr/l is too much. You can probably go down to 7-8 gr, but also higher. For dry hopping, maybe 5 gr/l, so that the Saison character doesn't get drown.

I like hops, but not neccessarily IPAs and NEIPAs. I like what hops can do to bitterness and enhancing certain aromas and taste in beer. I like using a bit more hops ( than what the " offcial guidelines " would require ) in each style, as rounds up the flavour character to my liking. Not that I don't enjoy a malty doppelbock, or a light lager once in a while. For me, anything belgian and hoppy, should have a good smack of hops. If you choose the right yeast - no matter if dry or liquid - and treat it right, the beer, even with 10 gr/l should still smell and taste like a Saison. Like a hoppy one at that. I think the yeast esters and phenols would be severely covered if using NEIPA level hopping.