Black IPA for a local competition

[twistr25]

Wasn't seeing much love over in the recipes forum, hope it's ok I transfer it over to here.

I have a local homebrew competition coming up in June and was thinking about trying a CDA/Black IPA for it. I'm most curious to know if my hop selection will pan out well together, but open to advice anywhere within. Thanks

Title: Dark Skies Black IPA
Author: Jeff Nelson

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Specialty Beer
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.062
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 5.86%
IBU (tinseth): 73.52
SRM (morey): 35.06

FERMENTABLES:
11 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (88%)
0.75 lb - German - Carafa III (6%)
0.5 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (4%)
0.25 lb - American - Chocolate (2%)

HOPS:
0.75 oz - Summit for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 18.5, IBU: 49.93)
1 oz - Citra for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 11, IBU: 19.64)
0.5 oz - Citra for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 11, IBU: 3.95)
1 oz - Citra for 7 days, Type: Leaf/Whole, Use: Dry Hop (AA 11)
1 oz - Cascade for 7 days, Type: Leaf/Whole, Use: Dry Hop (AA 7)

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 72%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 59 - 75 F
Fermentation Temp: 75 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

 

[Schumed]

does your competition have a black ipa /cda catergory officially? ....I would change your cascade dryhop to citra and use it in your 15 and 5 additions ....I don't care for citra in the boil I get that musk flavor..but love it as a dry hop.

 

[twistr25]

It's a free will competition. One of the judges is getting BCJP certified if he isn't already, but that's more for official notes than anything else. Another guy owns a craft beer store and the other is the owner of a restaurant, assuming they have the same people as last time. I just wanted to do something a little different.

so you're saying use all citra for dryhop and cascade for the 15 and 5 additions?

 

[conneryis007]

My most recent black IPA came out great and I attribute much of how it came out to cold steeping the chocolate grains. Use twice as much chocolate to achieve the same color additions. Cold tap water and crushed grains for 24-48 hours. The result is a totally different flavor! Much smoother, less harsh and you get the color you are looking for!

 

[Schumed]

cool...its just my personal preference with citra. If you want to play it safe...i would do all cascade...can't go wrong...

Or if you someone who likes to experiment split into two fermenters and dry hop differently

 

[MidTNJasonF]

I have seen more than a few Black IPA recpies here, in fact I think it is one of the more commonly discussed recipes.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/black-shadow-cascadian-dark-ale-aka-black-ipa-387410/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/black-ipa-recipe-help-399005/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/black-ipa-recipe-391392/

Your grain bill is almost identical to mine (first link above) with the exception you are a bit lighter in base male and OG.
I agree with the above poster. Get the Citra out of the boil and move it to dry hop. Love, love, love Citra as a dry hop. I use Centennial and Cascade as my boil hops.
I think the key for a good Black IPA is to use the Carafa III and a touch of chocolate to get that roast character and a nice hop punch (preferably citrus) to punch up that roast and play off it a bit.

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Oh and my above recipe scored high 30's (38.5 average and 37 average) in two recent BJCP competitions. Also scored well in a mock judging session within a local club judge training session.

 

[freisste]

My most recent black IPA came out great and I attribute much of how it came out to cold steeping the chocolate grains. Use twice as much chocolate to achieve the same color additions. Cold tap water and crushed grains for 24-48 hours. The result is a totally different flavor! Much smoother, less harsh and you get the color you are looking for!

So you steep the grain in cold water a day or two, then throw out that grain and proceed with the rest of the brew as you normally would? I've never heard of the practice, but I am intrigued...

I was planning to do a black IPA this fall for a Christmas present for some IPA lovers, but I have been worried about what they would think of the harshness. This may be just the ticket.

 

[theveganbrewer]

I know you're not going to style, but they got rid of Black IPA and it's now officially American Black Ale. Being from Cascadia myself, I believe CDA lives on and has different style guidelines. These might help figure out some things for your recipe, going off the notes below:

The two styles are fairly similar, but they diverge in roast and hop aroma. The American Black Ale has a fruity, floral, and herbal hop characteristic with more roast. The CDA would have citrus, Pine, Resinous, Sweet Malt, only hints of roast, toast, chocolate malt or Carafa.

 

[conneryis007]

So you steep the grain in cold water a day or two, then throw out that grain and proceed with the rest of the brew as you normally would? I've never heard of the practice, but I am intrigued...

I was planning to do a black IPA this fall for a Christmas present for some IPA lovers, but I have been worried about what they would think of the harshness. This may be just the ticket.

Yes strain/squeeze the liquid out of the cold steeped grains and add that to the beginning of your boil! Give it a tiny sip before you add it to the boil (or gently add to the end of your sparge if that makes straining easier for you) and you will be amazed at the flavors chocolate malt can create without 90% of the harshness/bitterness!

 

[twistr25]

Alright, adjusted hops as follows, bumped up the IBUs to 85, just decided to do a whole oz of Summit instead of .75

1 oz Summit 60 min 18.5 67.67 Pellet Boil
1 oz Cascade 15 min 7 12.71 Pellet Boil
1 oz Cascade 5 min 7 5.1 Pellet Aroma
2 oz Citra 7 days 11 Leaf/Whole Dry Hop

 

[MidTNJasonF]

I like it but move your 60min to First Wort. Small change but I have enjoyed the FWH in every beer I have made the change to. Softens the bitterness and rounds out the hop profile in my opinion. I do not know how it exactly works but it sure seems to.

 

[theveganbrewer]

I like it but move your 60min to First Wort. Small change but I have enjoyed the FWH in every beer I have made the change to. Softens the bitterness and rounds out the hop profile in my opinion. I do not know how it exactly works but it sure seems to.

It oxidizes the hop polyphenols (create hop astringency and bitterness perception) so they get attached to the hot break and fall out of the beer.

 

[twistr25]

Haven't tried FWH yet, but have seen that you should keep the bittering addition the same even if you do an FWH. Same case here, should I add back in a .25oz for 60 minutes or something else?

 

[twistr25]

Well now I see conflicting reports, some say a boost of 10%, calculators are giving me less..., also seems that I should use the Cascade or other lower AA for the FW

 

[Schumed]

I like it but move your 60min to First Wort. Small change but I have enjoyed the FWH in every beer I have made the change to. Softens the bitterness and rounds out the hop profile in my opinion. I do not know how it exactly works but it sure seems to.

not sure about that since summit is a high alpha hop

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-1.html

"Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. This FWH addition therefore should be taken from the hops intended for finishing additions. Because more hops are in the wort longer during the boil, the total bitterness of the beer in increased but not by a substantial amount due to being low in alpha acid. In fact, one study among professional brewers determined that the use of FWH resulted in a more refined hop aroma, a more uniform bitterness (i.e. no harsh tones), and a more harmonious beer overall compared to an identical beer produced without FWH."

 

[MidTNJasonF]

True I did not pay attention to that. I have not used Summit so I may have spoke out of turn.

As for the keeping of bittering additions I do no. On any IPA or APA I now only do FWH and I do not add any other hops until 15 minutes left in the boil. I tend to hit them fairly hard at the 15, 5, and flameout additions.

 

[Schumed]

Interesting on the FWH...I've never tried it personally...but now I'm intrigued and need to see the results for myself

 

[kontrol]

I know you're not going to style, but they got rid of Black IPA and it's now officially American Black Ale. Being from Cascadia myself, I believe CDA lives on and has different style guidelines. These might help figure out some things for your recipe, going off the notes below:

The two styles are fairly similar, but they diverge in roast and hop aroma. The American Black Ale has a fruity, floral, and herbal hop characteristic with more roast. The CDA would have citrus, Pine, Resinous, Sweet Malt, only hints of roast, toast, chocolate malt or Carafa.

Who removed the Black IPA style? Must not be talking about the BJCP since it's not even an official style (yet?). Just curious

 

[twistr25]

So anyone have an opinion on how to do this with the hops I have and doing the FWH?

 

[theveganbrewer]

Who removed the Black IPA style? Must not be talking about the BJCP since it's not even an official style (yet?). Just curious

Brewer's association guidelines. I can't respect BJCP because they're 5 years old.

 

[kontrol]

Brewer's association guidelines. I can't respect BJCP because they're 5 years old.

Your kidding right? The BJCP was founded in 1985... 2008 is the date of the latest review of the guidelines.

 

[theveganbrewer]

It's 2013, they need to stay up-to-date. They haven't made a major update to the guildlines in almost a decade. 2008 was a minor update, the last big change came in 2004.

But I digress. Citra is a great candidate for FWH.

 

[twistr25]

So should I swap out the Summit and do an ounce or two of Citra in the FWH then still do the Cascade at 15 and 5? Or would this be better to try more on a lighter hopped beer first?

 

[freisste]

Yes strain/squeeze the liquid out of the cold steeped grains and add that to the beginning of your boil! Give it a tiny sip before you add it to the boil (or gently add to the end of your sparge if that makes straining easier for you) and you will be amazed at the flavors chocolate malt can create without 90% of the harshness/bitterness!

Another question for you on cold steeping. How much water do you use? Standard 1.25-1.5 qts/lb of grain? Basically, I want to use as little as possible because I do PM BIAB and I am limited to my 5gal pot, which means I have to stay under about 4 gallons total volume. At the same time, I don't want to lose the value of the grains I steep cold.

Thanks in advance.

 

[twistr25]

I was curious on the cold steep as well.

And I want to buy ingredients next week, but haven't had a good answer on the way to FWH this? Here's the recipe again if it helps.

FERMENTABLES:
11 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (88%)
0.75 lb - German - Carafa III (6%)
0.5 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (4%)
0.5 lb - American - Chocolate (2%) - Cold steeped for 48 hours prior

HOPS:
1 oz - Summit for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 18.5, IBU: 49.93)
1 oz - Cascade for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 11, IBU: 19.64)
1 oz - Cascade for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 11, IBU: 3.95)
2 oz - Citra for 7 days, Type: Leaf/Whole, Use: Dry Hop (AA 11)

 

[theveganbrewer]

You want a less harsh bitterness? Just wondering why you want to FWH, not sure if you mentioned it earlier. Just know the final product will not have that bite you get from a nice bittering addition. It'll be there, but it'll come on slower and sort of fade away from the taste.

 

[Schumed]

I was curious on the cold steep as well.

And I want to buy ingredients next week, but haven't had a good answer on the way to FWH this? Here's the recipe again if it helps.

FERMENTABLES:
11 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (88%)
0.75 lb - German - Carafa III (6%)
0.5 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (4%)
0.5 lb - American - Chocolate (2%) - Cold steeped for 48 hours prior

HOPS:
1 oz - Summit for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 18.5, IBU: 49.93)
1 oz - Cascade for 15 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil (AA 11, IBU: 19.64)
1 oz - Cascade for 5 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Aroma (AA 11, IBU: 3.95)
2 oz - Citra for 7 days, Type: Leaf/Whole, Use: Dry Hop (AA 11)

Approved...Now Brew it

 

[tgmartin000]

Honestly I would ditch the chocolate. That's a personal thing, I don't like chocolate or coffee in my black IPA. Maybe the slightest bit of "roasty", but that's it. I used MO and midnight wheat for my last one and it was killer. Mine was all colombus/chinook/cascade/centennial though, super dank.

Can't wait to brew it again.

 

[twistr25]

You want a less harsh bitterness? Just wondering why you want to FWH, not sure if you mentioned it earlier. Just know the final product will not have that bite you get from a nice bittering addition. It'll be there, but it'll come on slower and sort of fade away from the taste.

MidTNJason suggested to give it a try, that's all. But I've seen differing opinions on the effect. I would have thought it would be less bitterness, but some literature I've found, including on BeerSmith's website indicates it could up it by 10%. I may stick with what I know for now and try to research a little better which hops are best for FWH, since it seems like lower AA is the ticket.

Thanks to all, this will be brewed up next weekend, stupid wedding this weekend... O well, free beer!

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Yeah that is one of those personal choice things. I have not had a good one yet that did not have some chocolate in it. Not to say it is not one out there but the good commercial version and all of the good home-brewed version I have had opportunity to taste contained a small percentage of chocolate. It lends very little if any actual chocolate or coffee flavor, to my pallet at least, but does contribute to the roast level.

 

[theveganbrewer]

MidTNJason suggested to give it a try, that's all. But I've seen differing opinions on the effect. I would have thought it would be less bitterness, but some literature I've found, including on BeerSmith's website indicates it could up it by 10%. I may stick with what I know for now and try to research a little better which hops are best for FWH, since it seems like lower AA is the ticket.

Thanks to all, this will be brewed up next weekend, stupid wedding this weekend... O well, free beer!

Up to you. Typically IBUs go up by 10% but the actual bitterness perception is lower despite the higher IBUs. Sounds confusing but its true.

Your recipe looks good with traditional bittering. If its too much try a citra fwh next time. Good luck.

 

[twistr25]

Had the chocolate steeping for the last two days. My fridge smells like dark chocolate pudding . Can't wait to get this fermenting tomorrow.

 

[twistr25]

Got this brewed on Saturday, tastes pretty good, but I was a little underwhelmed on the bitterness. Inputting the original recipe, I had Summit hops at 18% AA and the crop I got was 15.9%. I'm sure I could have added a little more but didn't really think it was worth the hassle, so I ended up closer to 75 IBUs instead of 85. I'll get over it.

 

[twistr25]

So, I put this in a local competition, only 22 entries, but netted me second place. Pretty awesome considering it didn't turn out how it was supposed to, but also a testament to how awesome this hobby is. Even though it wasn't BJCP sanctioned there was a BJCP judge and he gave this one a 39. Guess I should keep goofing up.