NHC second round entry?

[stephelton]

I won a first and a second place for my Irish Red and my Oatmeal Schwarzbier (respectively) at first round NHC in Denver. I understand that both can advance to the second round -- is that right? I've been looking around for info on when and where to send my entries, but I'm not finding anything. Can someone point me in the right direction?

 

[bob1852]

Go to brewingcompetiton.com and sign-in for your region. It should have all of the info there.

 

[stephelton]

Ah, thanks... Indeed there are instructions included in a PDF for me.

I have a few bottles of the IRA left, which I'll enter. I don't have any more of the Oatmeal Schwarzbier (I thought I did, but... they were mislabeled...) I do, however, have another Schwarzbier that's a slightly different recipe (notably, no oats). Would it be appropriate to enter this? I've read nothing that suggests I shouldn't except that I'm asked to provide my recipe.

 

[Yooper]

Ah, thanks... Indeed there are instructions included in a PDF for me.

I have a few bottles of the IRA left, which I'll enter. I don't have any more of the Oatmeal Schwarzbier (I thought I did, but... they were mislabeled...) I do, however, have another Schwarzbier that's a slightly different recipe (notably, no oats). Would it be appropriate to enter this? I've read nothing that suggests I shouldn't except that I'm asked to provide my recipe.

No. You can rebrew the same beer and send it, but you can't enter a different beer than the one that advanced.

 

[stephelton]

So -- to be clear -- it's supposed to be the exact same recipe?

edit: I really cannot find info on this. What I want to enter is my same recipe without the oats (same subcategory...) If I'm really not allowed (read: supposed) to enter it, can someone point me to some authority that says so?

 

[stephelton]

I just got an email back from Janis, the NHC Director. She said she "doesn't have a problem" with me submitting my new schwarzbier in place of the first round winner. It would still be nice to see some official rules on the subject...

So if anyone else has a similar problem -- email Janis She replied within 15 minutes and was very helpful.

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

I just got an email back from Janis, the NHC Director. She said she "doesn't have a problem" with me submitting my new schwarzbier in place of the first round winner. It would still be nice to see some official rules on the subject...

So if anyone else has a similar problem -- email Janis She replied within 15 minutes and was very helpful.

That's interesting because that contradicts my understanding of the second round rules. But if Janis says...

So let it be written. So let it be done.

 

[Yooper]

I just got an email back from Janis, the NHC Director. She said she "doesn't have a problem" with me submitting my new schwarzbier in place of the first round winner. It would still be nice to see some official rules on the subject...

So if anyone else has a similar problem -- email Janis She replied within 15 minutes and was very helpful.

She's the boss, so if she said it's ok then I guess it's ok! My understanding was the rebrewing was permitted, but submitting a different beer was not. If she said it's ok, though, then she's the authority.

I assume an "oatmeal schwartzbier" is a 23A, and without the oatmeal it's still going to be a 23A? That might be an issue if the "special ingredient" in 23A isn't there any more.

 

[AnchorBock]

She's the boss, so if she said it's ok then I guess it's ok! My understanding was the rebrewing was permitted, but submitting a different beer was not. If she said it's ok, though, then she's the authority.

I assume an "oatmeal schwartzbier" is a 23A, and without the oatmeal it's still going to be a 23A? That might be an issue if the "special ingredient" in 23A isn't there any more.

Yea I would think he'd have to leave it in 23A where it would likely get dinged for not having the oatmeal presence. Still better to send something instead of nothing since it's allowed.

 

[stephelton]

No, it was in 4C

Here's the recipe:

5.5 gal / 82% mash eff.
mash at 152

5 lb vienna
3 lb pils
0.5 lb dehusked carafa II
5 oz crystal 60
4 oz roasted barley
6 oz flaked oats

25 IBU tettnanger @ 90 minutes
0.5 oz tett @ 15

wyeast 2124

 

[Yooper]

No, it was in 4C

Here's the recipe:

5.5 gal / 82% mash eff.
mash at 152

5 lb vienna
3 lb pils
0.5 lb dehusked carafa II
5 oz crystal 60
4 oz roasted barley
6 oz flaked oats

25 IBU tettnanger @ 90 minutes
0.5 oz tett @ 15

wyeast 2124

Ah. If it was in 4C, it wasn't an "oatmeal schwarzbier" so you must not have listed the oatmeal as a specialty grain that isn't normally in schwartzbier. Since it's an insignificant amount, the judges must not have picked it up and dinged you for it (oats would take it out of 4C and into 23A).

I'm surprised that the roasted barley didn't take you out of the running for schwartzbier- it must be very subtle.

Anyway, Janis is the authority on this so if she says "yes", then that's the final answer. I've always been told that rebrewing is ok but NOT a different beer or recipe.

 

[Jipper]

I have heard the same thing, but I think that's more of an "honors" thing than an actual rule. If a certain beer gets you there, is it fair to change it? On that same question: Would you want to change it? If I scored a 40 on a beer, get it to advance with a 1st or second, I definitely wouldn't want to enter a different beer in its place!

Cheers.

 

[Braufessor]

Hmmmmmm...... So, if you brewed a beer for the first round, and it advanced to the second round it is "wrong" to follow any "advice" the first round judges give you on their score sheets???? That is sort of odd to me. For instance - I placed with an American Brown Ale ("Oatmeal" Brown ale by the way...... Both judges had a lot of good things to say about my beer, but both also stated the same thing - the beer was not bitter enough and needed a bit more hops to balance it out.

I had plans to rebrew all of my beers that I entered if need be... I had my scoresheets back before I rebrewed the brown. I decided to rebrew two versions - one is the original, one is the original + higher IBU's (per judges comments). Point is kind of mute as I plan to enter the original anyway (as I think it turned out better) but it seems bizarre to me that you cannot use the feedback you got from the judges to improve your beer??? If I would have liked the other version, the hoppier version, it would not have been within the rules to enter it?

Also, at exactly what point is a "rebrew" changed? grain bill, hops, yeast . . . .what about water, mash temperature, time in the fermenter, carbonation level???

I guess what I am getting at is several things:
1.) Seems like an impossible thing to police
2.) Seems like something that is pretty hard/impossible to actually define
3.) Seems like something that is sort of at odds with getting the feedback in the first place.

 

[stephelton]

It's definitely the honors system... and that's not just relevant to this small case of re-brewing a beer for second round. What's to stop me from picking up a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, stripping the label off, blacking the cap out, and entering it as my own pale ale?

Also, there isn't a huge time frame between getting results back from first round and having to enter second round. Probably not enough to do a good job on a Schwarzbier, anyway. It probably makes a lot more sense for something like a Hefeweizen where you need it to be nice and fresh (young) anyway.

And -- yooper -- that's not much roast. I've gotten comments from judges suggesting I up the roast. And no, I did not disclose the oatmeal other than in the beer's name. It wasn't a beer I brewed for competition in the first place...

 

[Braufessor]

. What's to stop me from picking up a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, stripping the label off, blacking the cap out, and entering it as my own pale ale?

I suppose that "honor" would prevent 99% of everyone from doing this. Beyond that, i suppose "getting caught" and looking like a total and complete tool would do it for most of the rest....... I am sure someone, somewhere has done it though. Pretty sad if that is what passes as an "accomplishment" in someone's life...... At that point, I just feel sorry for them, and hopefully the Medal will help.

But, in regard to the original questions..... These are two dramatically different things. One is stealing/theft of intellectual property and passing it off as your own..... Ruled dictate YOU can't even brew a beer on commercial equipment and enter it. It has to be YOUR beer..... the Sierra Nevada example is not "homebrew", it is brewed commercially, it is not your homebrew for sure......That is a whole other issue.

If you are brewing your beer, on your equipment, for the category you qualified in...... I don't even see what "honor" has to do with any of it. A "rebrew" is not going to be the exact beer - period. Likewise, no one is going to reinvent the wheel with it either - I mean if it made it through in the top 3, it was a fine beer to start with - It would be stupid to brew a completely different beer in every way.
But, if you have a killer pale ale (one that you thought could win) and you brew it for first round, and make a slight error (mash too high, or low) or fermentation temp is a couple degrees off, or you had Briess 2 Row but prefer Rahr........ even with a slight error, you get a third place with it anyway, and the judges comment "mash a little lower, seemed a bit on the sweet side"........Is someone actually going to tell me that when they rebrew it they would let the mash temperatures go "high" again out of "honor" so they can rebrew exactly as they did the first time????
I would be stunned if even 10-20% of the "rebrews" are "exactly" the same beer. That is why it is homebrewing.

 

[AnchorBock]

I think part of the reason they ask the competition directors to get the scoresheets out asap is so people can use that feedback if/when they rebrew the beer for the second round.

Of my 2 entries that advanced I saved 5 bottles of a 7% Scottish Ale that has actually improved a bit (had one bottle last Friday) that I never really planned on rebrewing. The other entry is an APA that I always planned to rebrew - my scoresheets weren't very helpful for the APA, but it got 1st out of 44 entries in Category 10 so that made up my mind for me not to make any big recipe changes. The one thing I changed was to mash about a degree or so lower as it had finished at 1.014 and I wanted it to finish at 1.012, which the rebrew did. It just needed to be a tad dryer - had a pint last night and it was definitely the right move - slightly less sweet than the original batch.

I don't see why anyone would have a problem with recipe changes though, they choose to allow rebrewing for a reason.