Golden Promise, issues?

[MakeDankBeer]

This weekend I tried brewing a hazy pale ale with 80% golden promise 20% adjuncts. Using the same method I always use, I missed my OG by .020 , so my 1.060 was actually 1.040. I BIAB no sparge, grind my own grain. and typically always hit my projected OG. Now the only two things that changed this batch vs other batches is. 100% golden promise base malt.(i've used up tp 50% in this same recipe) the other change was water additions were forgotten until after the hour long mash. The golden promise was from LHBS and had quite a bit of bugs in it( which I read it meant it was old, but still okay to use. ) So my thoughts on low OG are.

1.diastic power of golden promise
2. old grain
3. high mash ph 5.7(?) or so according to brun water
4. all of the above

Should I try this again but with more golden promise to hit my goal of 1.060 ? or chalk it up as a combination and just redo with fresher grain?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Golden Promise is pretty similar to any other UK 2-row as far as diastatic power is concerned - after all, it's widely used in whisky. So it's not some kind of variety-specific enzyme thing.

Screwing up the mash chemistry certainly won't help - aside from the wrong pH, you might not have had enough calcium present.

I'd also double check your crush - both to make sure that something hasn't come out of alignment, but also the old grain might not be grinding so well.

 

[specharka]

Golden Promise does have a relatively low DP compared to most base malt. But the fact that you’re using grain infested with bugs is HORRIBLE & implies that the grain was old and stored improperly. I would never even touch that grain (cross-contamination risk), let alone brew with it.

I use GP regularly as a base malt in my pale ales and have never struggled with conversion. You need to exercise more scrutiny with your LHBS — grain weevils are unacceptable.

 

[day_trippr]

Another vote of confidence in Golden Promise - at least under the acquisition and usage models I consider "normal"
I use it interchangeably with other base grains and haven't noticed any yield variation from recipe to recipe...

Cheers!

 

[ba-brewer]

what were your adjuncts?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Golden Promise does have a relatively low DP compared to most base malt.

Shouldn't do, unless you're using maltsters like Bairds. But eg Simpsons claim the same DP range for "ordinary" UK 2-row, Otter and Promise.

 

[specharka]

Shouldn't do, unless you're using maltsters like Bairds. But eg Simpsons claim the same DP range for "ordinary" UK 2-row, Otter and Promise.

Compared to other maltsters, yes, Simpsons GP is quite low around 70 degrees Lintner. Maris Otter comes in at 120 L, continental Pilsner usually 110 L, domestic 2-row 140 L, domestic wheat malt 160+ L. Basically on the same level as Vienna or Munich malt — but still well above the recommended 35 L/lb to ensure successful conversion.

 

[thehaze]

I've had good efficiency with Simpsons GP and the flavour is great, especially in Smash type beers.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Was it a low mash temp? A pH that high will make for very slow conversion in the 148 to 152 range, but should be OK above that (due to pH preference between beta and alpha amylase).

 

[ESBrewer]

Compared to other maltsters, yes, Simpsons GP is quite low around 70 degrees Lintner. Maris Otter comes in at 120 L, continental Pilsner usually 110 L, domestic 2-row 140 L, domestic wheat malt 160+ L. Basically on the same level as Vienna or Munich malt — but still well above the recommended 35 L/lb to ensure successful conversion.

I wonder where you can get Maris Otter at 120L? The diastatic power depends on the amount of protein in the barley, the malting process and the level of the kilning (heat leads to less active enzymes). The protein levels of British GP & Otter are very similar and so is the malting process of these grains. The British pale ale malts tend to be rather low in DP (and full in taste) because of the high level of malt kilning & low level of protein in the grain (compared to say US 2-row) no matter what the exact barley variety (Golden Promise or Otter). Most of the time low protein, flavourful malt is exactly what the brewers are looking for when brewing pale ales with minor amount of adjuncts. Continental pilsner malt has less color and taste on its own because the level of kilning is low and thus, it has more DP than British pale ale malts. US grains tend to be high in protein (->more enzymes, too) and the level of kilning tends to be low so DP is high and suitable for beers that contain a lot of adjuncts. I don't think there's a material difference in terms of DP between Golden Promise and other British varieties and this is in line with Simpson's fact sheets above.

 

[Derp]

Bugs eat grain. Sounds like they might've eaten a lot of it.

 

[specharka]

I wonder where you can get Maris Otter at 120L? The diastatic power depends on the amount of protein in the barley, the malting process and the level of the kilning (heat leads to less active enzymes). The protein levels of British GP & Otter are very similar and so is the malting process of these grains. The British pale ale malts tend to be rather low in DP (and full in taste) because of the high level of malt kilning & low level of protein in the grain (compared to say US 2-row) no matter what the exact barley variety (Golden Promise or Otter). Most of the time low protein, flavourful malt is exactly what the brewers are looking for when brewing pale ales with minor amount of adjuncts. Continental pilsner malt has less color and taste on its own because the level of kilning is low and thus, it has more DP than British pale ale malts. US grains tend to be high in protein (->more enzymes, too) and the level of kilning tends to be low so DP is high and suitable for beers that contain a lot of adjuncts. I don't think there's a material difference in terms of DP between Golden Promise and other British varieties and this is in line with Simpson's fact sheets above.

Handy diastatic power chart?

Looks like the above post was wrong though. The BSG spec sheet shows 50 L.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/diastatic-power-and-mashing-your-beer/

Another source citing 120 L for Maris Otter. Interesting.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

what were your adjuncts?

flaked wheat and flaked oat

Was it a low mash temp? A pH that high will make for very slow conversion in the 148 to 152 range, but should be OK above that (due to pH preference between beta and alpha amylase).

mashed at 152 for an hour

 

[ba-brewer]

flaked wheat and flaked oat



mashed at 152 for an hour

Did the flaked oats and wheat come from the same home brew store you got the base malt from, did they seem fresh or were the bags all dusty? Flaked ingredients don't have as long a shelf life as whole grain, maybe ask if they sell much to get an idea on turn over. If the oats came from the grocery store some types need to be cooked before mashing.

Do you do anything to check for conversion completion? I use a refractometer to check gravity of the mash and sometime it takes longer than an hour to get to full conversion. The bulk is done pretty quick like 20-30min but sometime the last 20% takes a while.

 

[Hanglow]

120l is far to high for MO. I think there was a misinterpretation of diastatic power there, probably as there are different standards. Even low colour MO isn't that high , it has a litner of about 75 I think.

I suspect beersmith took the EBC rating which would be 120 on the Windisch-Kolbach index, which is about 40 Litner. seems a bit low but i have seen the low estimate of MO at about that before. It's usually 40-60 as a range

 

[MakeDankBeer]

Did the flaked oats and wheat come from the same home brew store you got the base malt from, did they seem fresh or were the bags all dusty? Flaked ingredients don't have as long a shelf life as whole grain, maybe ask if they sell much to get an idea on turn over. If the oats came from the grocery store some types need to be cooked before mashing.

Do you do anything to check for conversion completion? I use a refractometer to check gravity of the mash and sometime it takes longer than an hour to get to full conversion. The bulk is done pretty quick like 20-30min but sometime the last 20% takes a while.

all of the flaked ingredients are stored in plastic buckets with air tight lids, hard to tell how old they are. I have checked for conversion but I did not on this batch since its never been a problem.

 

[filthyastronaut]

When I started adjusting mash pH, my mash efficiency went up 10 percent. I'd say that's definitely a factor, particularly with adjuncts. The diastatic power of Golden Promise would probably cut it in an optimal mash pH. And it's possible that the bugs got rid of some valuable bits of the grain. So definitely no fault of Golden Promise itself, if you want the same beer I'd just try to get your hands on better grain and don't forget your water additions.

 

[kevin58]

Here are a few things to know about bugs in malted barley (or any grain): A colony of just a couple dozen bugs can multiply into the millions in just a few short months. If that colony grows large enough you can actually smell their urine in your grain. It will be an ammonia or "mousy" smell. There will also be bug feces in your grain... dead bug carcasses... bug eggs and larvae. If the colony in your bag grew large enough it is possible some of them ate through the bag and are now in your brewing area looking for more food.

 

[MotoGP1000]

This weekend I tried brewing a hazy pale ale with 80% golden promise 20% adjuncts. Using the same method I always use, I missed my OG by .020 , so my 1.060 was actually 1.040. I BIAB no sparge, grind my own grain. and typically always hit my projected OG. Now the only two things that changed this batch vs other batches is. 100% golden promise base malt.(i've used up tp 50% in this same recipe) the other change was water additions were forgotten until after the hour long mash. The golden promise was from LHBS and had quite a bit of bugs in it( which I read it meant it was old, but still okay to use. ) So my thoughts on low OG are.

1.diastic power of golden promise
2. old grain
3. high mash ph 5.7(?) or so according to brun water
4. all of the above

Should I try this again but with more golden promise to hit my goal of 1.060 ? or chalk it up as a combination and just redo with fresher grain?

I can attest to this. Ive used GP in my last 4 batches and havent hit my expected gravity. At first i thought i was mashing too high of a temp (i wanted some sweetness to back the hops) so i lowered my mash temp to gain more fermentable sugars. Didnt help and gave me a more dry beer. Im switching as an experiment to 2row to see if i have the same issue and hiking my mash temp back up for that sweetness to support the massive hopload.
My only adjuncts were flaked oats and flaked wheat of which ill still use on the next one.
In short, with all the other brews ive messed with, GP is the only one that has consistently missed the OG mark.

 

[divrack]

Here are a few things to know about bugs in malted barley (or any grain): A colony of just a couple dozen bugs can multiply into the millions in just a few short months. If that colony grows large enough you can actually smell their urine in your grain. It will be an ammonia or "mousy" smell. There will also be bug feces in your grain... dead bug carcasses... bug eggs and larvae. If the colony in your bag grew large enough it is possible some of them ate through the bag and are now in your brewing area looking for more food.

That sounds like a John carpenter film...
And the flavour descriptors are exactly like Caledonian brewery in Edinburgh funnily enough, I always figured it was mouldy damp grain.. bug piss.. could be their new "American style" attempt name.

 

[divrack]

Always had cracking efficiency with gp, so I can't speak to that. Although I did have an absurdly high efficiency with something else recently.

Pointless information I know, however some more interesting pointless information is that golden promise was developed under the same crazy purposeful irradiation mutation method, where proper mad scientist types would stick a bunch of crops around a big lump of radioactive material and see what mutations they liked which they then would breed, as pink grapefruit. What a sentence that was.

 

[Hanglow]

That sounds like a John carpenter film...
And the flavour descriptors are exactly like Caledonian brewery in Edinburgh funnily enough, I always figured it was mouldy damp grain.. bug piss.. could be their new "American style" attempt name.

I call the calleys house flavour the Heineken effect although truth be told they started to lose their way before Heineken took them over

 

[shoengine]

Always had cracking efficiency with gp, so I can't speak to that. Although I did have an absurdly high efficiency with something else recently.

Pointless information I know, however some more interesting pointless information is that golden promise was developed under the same crazy purposeful irradiation mutation method, where proper mad scientist types would stick a bunch of crops around a big lump of radioactive material and see what mutations they liked which they then would breed, as pink grapefruit. What a sentence that was.

I was wondering why my GP beers always had such a wonderful, warm glow! It's nice because it is impossible to lose my drink in the dark.

 

[chris s]

I just brewed a batch that was 48% 2 row, 32% Golden Promise, 12% oats and the rest was carafoam and lactose. Would replacing the 2 row with a Pilsner malt make for a better flavor? Or maybe even having 48% GP and 32% Pilsner? Never used pilsner malt for NEIPAs but I see many breweries make great beer with Pilsner malt.

 

[MotoGP1000]

I just brewed a batch that was 48% 2 row, 32% Golden Promise, 12% oats and the rest was carafoam and lactose. Would replacing the 2 row with a Pilsner malt make for a better flavor? Or maybe even having 48% GP and 32% Pilsner? Never used pilsner malt for NEIPAs but I see many breweries make great beer with Pilsner malt.

Tbh... I’ve used straight GP and not bothered dabbled with the Pilsner. I only used Pilsner for the color.