2278 lager starter, 40 hours later

[JasontheBeaver]

Performed my first ale starter last week with perfect results; very easy.

This week I tried a lager starter and it's 40 hours later and still no fermentation.
400mg extra light DME with about 4l water and 1/2t yeast nutrient, boiled 15 mins. (around 1.042 grav)
Cooled to 20C, oxygenated for 60 sec, then pitched 2 Wyeast Czech Pils #2278 smack packs (they were manuf 4 months ago). The packs and my house are at 20C too.
Poured into my 3 gal Better Bottle, and there it sits... nothing. I walk by and shake it every couple hours... nothing... grav still 1.042
The only reason I tried a starter was to save $12 from buying the required 400 billion cells needed for this beer. Now it looks like I'm out the original $12 for the 2 packs, plus an emergency trip to the LHBS to drop another $24 for 4 more packs (if they even have them!)
I know lagers take longer to start, but 40 hours and still nothing?
I used this same yeast pitched directly a couple months ago with no problems whatsoever.
Any ideas?

 

[shelly_belly]

I recently made 2 1 gallon lagers and pitched 1 vial each of White Labs 800 (Czech Pils) and 830 (German Lager). The 830 took off in 1.5 days but the 800 didn't get busy for about 5-6 days. I wonder if the 800 is similar to the 2278.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

You could be right Shelly, but taking that long for a starter seriously screws with a brewing schedule.
I just bought 4 vials of white labs 830 so I can keep my schedule.

 

[Brewskii]

My thoughts are this; you never can make a time line of any importance in a home brew setting. That being said, yeast received from the retailer, though almost ALWAYS viable, is very inconsistent.

In my eyes, yeast starters are unpredictable at best due to wide variability in storage conditions of packaged brewing yeast during its dormancy. Which is another reason I try not to obtain yeast via on-line stores in hot weather (not that you did that).

40 hours is a little long for activity to start but I usually make time assumptions after I have my initial pitch in hand. I would be surprised if it didn't take off soon. I've never had one that didn't.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

UPDATE
52 hours later the starter showed signs of life and is now fermenting.
SG down to 1.036.
This still screws with my schedule because I don't think I'll have time to let it ferment completely, cold crash it, then bring the temp back up to pitching temp all within 16 hours, which is my deadline.
Luckily I have those 4 vials of Whitelabs 830 in reserve.

So far here's what I'm taking away from all this...
I'll continue to do starters for ales but for lagers I'll either buy all the yeast needed or try to start 5 days before brew day, which honestly just isn't worth the hassle for the $12 in yeast it saves me.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

My thoughts are this... I usually make time assumptions after I have my initial pitch in hand.

Brewskii I think you're right and I've learned my lesson.

So now my starter has fermented down to 1.020 and I need to start cooling it down to separate the (almost) spent wort from the yeast.
Is 1.020 good enough? I prefer more but I'm really up against my brewing deadline!

After earning several medals for my brews, I still feel like a teenage kid going back to his parents for advice when it comes to something like this; a skill I should've taught myself a long time ago.

 

[Brewskii]

I figure if you do pitch low/early, let it go at high krausen. There is nothing wrong with letting your horses out of the gate at a dead run.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

Thanks Brewskii. I figured this too but then don't you have to pitch the entire starter?
I like the idea of being able to let the yeast settle out and decant that spent wort so it doesn't effect the flavor, especially with a pilsener.

 

[Brewskii]

That's the rub. If you try to chill and decant at high krausen, the yeast will take even longer to settle (if at all) and you'll be losing more valuable cells in the supernatant which means you're now under pitching even more than if you had not. You are; however, using a fresh and healthy culture.

Since you are doing a lager here, this may not be an option. Starters can approach 6 L or more ( yours is around a gallon) for a good YCC. Pitching an active starter would not be appropriate in this case IMO because of the higher dilution of the beer as brewed.

If you did pitch it, I wouldn't worry too much though, starter wort is very neutral in hopped beer and hops will come through. I would expect a somewhat dialed down version of a great beer if you pitched the whole thing.

 

[JasontheBeaver]

UPDATE:
14 hours after pitching and these babies are rockin'!
I'm still never doing a lager starter again, seriously not worth the hassle.
Although I'm reading the book "Yeast" as I type so maybe I'll learn something that will change my mind.

 

[Brewskii]

UPDATE:
14 hours after pitching and these babies are rockin'!
I'm still never doing a lager starter again, ....

Are you sure about that? The yeast you pitched to the starter took over two days to get going. Now that you've grown them out and got them reved up - your getting a good strong ferment and (if your temp profile is good) your yeast will repay you for your efforts with a low ester profile like you'd expect for your Pilsner.
If you bought all the yeast they had at the LHBS and used that to pitch based on number of viable cells and OG from the calculator of your choice, your beer would be hanging out for two or more days waiting to get going because your entire pitch would be jacked up.

I think just the opposite, my take home lesson learned from this would be always do a starter and do it early enough that you can absorb a glitch in the yeast performance. Verifying and improving the health of the yeast is the whole name of the game when it comes to starters and is critical in any yeast-forward beer likes Lagers Belgians and Wheats.

Grow it out, cold crash it and if it sits in the fridge for as much as a week (or even longer) as long as you allow the pitch to return to close to your wort temp when you dump it in, it will be fine and you will KNOW it will perform when the time comes.

That's just my $.02

 

[JasontheBeaver]

You're probably right. I guess I just like the simplicity of direct pitching, and since I've never had a bad experience so far with this approach I find it hard to switch methods.
My first two pilsners ever took 1st and 2nd using direct pitch. But then again who know what would've happened with this latest batch of suspect yeast.
I'll ponder this more.
I now have 4 extra vials of lager yeast hanging out in the fridge so maybe I could experiment with those and get my technique down a little better before my next batch.
The best point you make is that I can start the starter well before my brew day and keep them in the fridge until needed. I was thinking more along the lines of having to do this just a day or two before brew day.
Really appreciate the sounding board Brewskii!