To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

[Ondori]

Yes, but I don't think you want them in there for 2 weeks.

Denny,

I am pretty much doing your recipe, just without the bourbon. How long would you leave the vanilla in for?

 

[Siriusfisherman]

Recently I have cranked up the temperature when around 60%-70% of fermentation is complete. I start at 64-68 (depending on the beer) and will allow the temperature to free rise to 70-72 degrees until the final gravity is stable for a few days. Then sometimes I crash to 50 for a few days to floc out yeast and transfer to secondary, mainly for dry-hopping. I find this technique is fast, produces a very clean beer, and attenuates fully EVERY time. I started this after doing a clone of Alchemists El Hefe, which called for this strategy.

I believe that this is what a lot of professional breweries do in order to keep the yeast suspended as it reduces diacetyl, and cleans up and finishes fermenting the beer. It is not necessary for homebrewers due to the shape and size of the fermenters we use (as Jamil and JP pointed out), but I find the results quite satisfying and it enables me to have a higher turnover rate. A lot of people seem concerned about ester production with the early temp raise, but I have not had any issues. I use 1056 by the way.

 

[Denny]

Denny,

I am pretty much doing your recipe, just without the bourbon. How long would you leave the vanilla in for?

I start tasting samples after 3-5 days. Sometimes it's ready then, sometimes it takes 10-12 days. It really depends on how fresh your vanilla is and how strong you want to flavor to be.

 

[Haputanlas]

It only took 3 days for mine to come out very strong. But, I'm sure different types of vanilla beans make a difference.

 

[funnycreature]

I start tasting samples after 3-5 days. Sometimes it's ready then, sometimes it takes 10-12 days. It really depends on how fresh your vanilla is and how strong you want to flavor to be.

Funny that I should really (almost) find the answer to my question after reading almost 500 posts! I was wondering whether vanilla beans are considered "fruit" and need to be added to a secondary. I was reading your discussion on the Northern Forum before I brewed your BVIP and even there there was no consensus about primary vs. secondary (although it appeared that most followed your original recipe calling for a secondary). Do you have any final thoughts on this or more experience both ways yourself?

Many thanks! Can't wait to see how it turns out!

 

[Denny]

Funny that I should really (almost) find the answer to my question after reading almost 500 posts! I was wondering whether vanilla beans are considered "fruit" and need to be added to a secondary. I was reading your discussion on the Northern Forum before I brewed your BVIP and even there there was no consensus about primary vs. secondary (although it appeared that most followed your original recipe calling for a secondary). Do you have any final thoughts on this or more experience both ways yourself?

Many thanks! Can't wait to see how it turns out!

Back when I made that recipe, I always used a secondary so it was the logical place to add the beans. Not wanting to mess with success, that's what I still do. Now that I seldom use secondary, I'm not sure I'd still make the recipe the same. Your choice, but adding to secondary is proven.

 

[funnycreature]

Thanks Denny! I will try the secondary soon.

 

[Piratwolf]

Recently I have cranked up the temperature when around 60%-70% of fermentation is complete. I start at 64-68 (depending on the beer) and will allow the temperature to free rise to 70-72 degrees until the final gravity is stable for a few days.... I find this technique is fast, produces a very clean beer, and attenuates fully EVERY time.

This has become my standard practice also. I believe Tasty McDole does this on most beers as well. I haven't had a flabby-malt-character beer since I started doing this; nor have there been flavor issues. From what I hear and read, the flavor problems mostly come during the lag/growth phase in the first 24-36 hours of the cycle. At 60-70% to FG, you're generally well past the danger zone.

 

[mtnagel]

How often are you checking the gravity?

 

[cuda6pak]

I have a question for the HBT experts and long primary folks - How long is it necessary to keep your fermenting beers in a precise temp controlled chamber?

I ask this because in the interest of saving space and money, I do not want to add a second fermentation chamber, but I also do not want to tie up my current one for 4 weeks with a high grav beer. Is there a certain threshold, say after 1-2 weeks (depending on high grav or style) where it is not so critical to keep a precise temperature? And what is the specific ambient temperature that is safe? I keep my house around 80* during the day (in summer, 60* in winter) and back down to below 70-75 at night. I don't want the 80* or 60* ambient temp to affect a beer negatively.

 

[DPBISME]

I have a question for the HBT experts and long primary folks - How long is it necessary to keep your fermenting beers in a precise temp controlled chamber?

I ask this because in the interest of saving space and money, I do not want to add a second fermentation chamber, but I also do not want to tie up my current one for 4 weeks with a high grav beer. Is there a certain threshold, say after 1-2 weeks (depending on high grav or style) where it is not so critical to keep a precise temperature? And what is the specific ambient temperature that is safe? I keep my house around 80* during the day (in summer, 60* in winter) and back down to below 70-75 at night. I don't want the 80* or 60* ambient temp to affect a beer negatively.

There was another post like this today, that brewer wanted to "age" the beer in the low to mid 70s folowing the primary fermentations.

I am not a biology or chemist but I think that once the yeast has finished consuming the majority of the food available and producing the majority of the flavor that what ever it does after that will not affect the beer much.

So say at three weeks it is 99% done... well what could that other 1% do to your beer? I say not much.

Also: some brewing schedules want you to raise the temp (Kolsch) up to around 72 before Lagering to make the yeast more active. FOR THE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacetyl REST.

Now you temp-ranges are 20 degrees so if you took you beer out of the fermentation chamber when it was 80 (a bit high) it would take a while for the beer to actually get to them temp.

BUT: If you had a cool spot in the mid 70s it would take a long time to it to get warm since the difference in temps is not very big... 10 degrees it would probably take a day or more.

The only thing I would worry about at those higher temps is "little beasties" Brett, wild yeasts, or infection might be possible but it all depends on how long you are going to leave it in the keg at those temps and if your sanitation is good.

So: when ever you have finished Primary fermentation or are very close to it I think you can move your beer out... I would say a minimum of three weeks for HG-beers or you could take some gravioty readings...

 

[brycelarson]

I have a question for the HBT experts and long primary folks - How long is it necessary to keep your fermenting beers in a precise temp controlled chamber?

I ask this because in the interest of saving space and money, I do not want to add a second fermentation chamber, but I also do not want to tie up my current one for 4 weeks with a high grav beer. Is there a certain threshold, say after 1-2 weeks (depending on high grav or style) where it is not so critical to keep a precise temperature? And what is the specific ambient temperature that is safe? I keep my house around 80* during the day (in summer, 60* in winter) and back down to below 70-75 at night. I don't want the 80* or 60* ambient temp to affect a beer negatively.

I keep good temperature control until I'm at or beyond about 75% of expected attenuation. Then I either increase with heat or allow it to come to about 70 deg for 4-5 days. Then it's a matter of deciding how you want to age your beer through the completion of fermentation and clean up.

 

[Piratwolf]

How often are you checking the gravity?

I'll check after 3 days. I've used most of these yeasts enough (001, 3711, 007, Pacman) to know what they look like at various stages. Then I'll pull them out and let them warm up to about 70F and finish vi-ga-rose-ly

If you're doing healthy starters, oxygenating your wort, and pitching a sufficient cell count, it's not going to take most beers more than 2-3 days to ferment down to 75% of expected attenuation. Give it another 4-5 days for the yeast to do clean-up and off-gas, and you should be good to go.

I know the time issue is sensitive for some people, and I really don't want to re-awaken that beast. And, of course, this doesn't necessarily apply to bigger beers or specialty ingredient beers (oak, dry hop, herbs, bugs, etc). Brew how you make your best beers.

But in response to the poster who doesn't want to tie up his ferm chamber, know that there are a number of folks here who make great beer and go flame-to-glass in 10-14 days as a regular practice. It's all about process and healthy fermentation.

Cheers!

 

[brycelarson]

But in response to the poster who doesn't want to tie up his ferm chamber, know that there are a number of folks here who make great beer and go flame-to-glass in 10-14 days as a regular practice. It's all about process and healthy fermentation.

I also don't want to get into the long term primary fight - but I agree. 3-4 days at low temp, 4-5 days at 70-ish and into the keg. I hit it with 25 psi to seal the lid then let her sit until a spot opens in my freezer. It's fine in a week, often better in two additional weeks.

 

[isleofman]

Recently I have cranked up the temperature when around 60%-70% of fermentation is complete. I start at 64-68 (depending on the beer) and will allow the temperature to free rise to 70-72 degrees until the final gravity is stable for a few days.

I do the same. The Yeast book also praises this method as well. It says with 1/3 to 1/4 fermentation remaining, slowly crank the temperature up 5F - 10F more than the target primary fermentation temp. It also talks about starting fermentation a tad cooler for the first 18 - 24 hours. Say, 2F lower. As this is when most off flavors are created.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

Old school here, been 2-stage fermenting for years.

Jamil and John talk about how home brewer's fermenters have broad bottoms (unlike commercial conicals) , but what about home brewers using conical fermenters for 10 gallon batches ?
Still no harm fermenting for 4 weeks in a conical?

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

 

[Pilgarlic]

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

Plenty of yeast for bottle conditioning after 30 days... and more.

 

[Denny]

Old school here, been 2-stage fermenting for years.

Jamil and John talk about how home brewer's fermenters have broad bottoms (unlike commercial conicals) , but what about home brewers using conical fermenters for 10 gallon batches ?
Still no harm fermenting for 4 weeks in a conical?

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

Actually, the recommendation came from the fact that Jamil uses conicals. He doesn't use a secondary since he just dumped yeast from the conical. That's something that's often overlooked in the recommendation to not use secondary.

There's plenty of yeast left for carbing after 30 days. Even if you lager the beer for months, there's still enough.

 

[Puddlethumper]

So I'm doing my first batch of IPA and moved it to secondary and dry hopped after first week. How important is temperature control during the three weeks the recipe calls for in the secondary?

 

[Silverback23]

Wow,

Just read all of this thread. Quick question. I have a basic Porter sitting in the primary. Plan on leaving there for about two months, due to my travel plans. At the end of the first month, I'd like to add some fresh mint and fresh vanilla beans that have been steeping in Cognac for a month. Can i throw it all in the primary, about 16 oz of Cognac (mint & Vanilla beans too) without harming the beer. About 16 oz of Cognac. It will be in a grain bag ( Mint and Vanilla). The cognac plus mint and vanilla will spend a month in the primary total. Opinions?

 

[Yankeepride15]

Old school here, been 2-stage fermenting for years.

Jamil and John talk about how home brewer's fermenters have broad bottoms (unlike commercial conicals) , but what about home brewers using conical fermenters for 10 gallon batches ?
Still no harm fermenting for 4 weeks in a conical?

Also, is there still a viable yeast colony suspended in the beer after 30 days for the purpose of bottle carbonation?

As far as your question about broad bottom v conical, I think the other contributing factor was the head pressure of hundreds or thousands of gallons of beer on top of a narrowing column, which increased yeast autolysis. 10 gal home conicals don't have that pressure on the yeast, making them acceptable for use in the long single primary process.

 

[two_hearted]

So I'm doing my first batch of IPA and moved it to secondary and dry hopped after first week. How important is temperature control during the three weeks the recipe calls for in the secondary?

You sure it didn't say to ferment for 3 weeks and then dry hop in secondary vessel for one week? Once fermentation is complete, you can let your beer rise up to the low 70s without too much ill effect. What matters is that it is not swinging up and down.

 

[two_hearted]

Wow,

Just read all of this thread. Quick question. I have a basic Porter sitting in the primary. Plan on leaving there for about two months, due to my travel plans. At the end of the first month, I'd like to add some fresh mint and fresh vanilla beans that have been steeping in Cognac for a month. Can i throw it all in the primary, about 16 oz of Cognac (mint & Vanilla beans too) without harming the beer. About 16 oz of Cognac. It will be in a grain bag ( Mint and Vanilla). The cognac plus mint and vanilla will spend a month in the primary total. Opinions?

For that long I would rack off of your yeast before adding the cognac. That seems like a ton of booze to be adding. I wonder what the abv will end up at and if it will effect the yeast in suspension. Do you bottle condition or keg?

 

[Silverback23]

For that long I would rack off of your yeast before adding the cognac. That seems like a ton of booze to be adding. I wonder what the abv will end up at and if it will effect the yeast in suspension. Do you bottle condition or keg?

Yeah, I'm wondering all the same things, which is why I'm reaching out for help on this issue. I bottle condition.

What's your rational for racking to the secondary?

Thanks.

 

[Puddlethumper]

You sure it didn't say to ferment for 3 weeks and then dry hop in secondary vessel for one week? .

Yah. I read the recipe correctly. The reason I posted the message as I did is so those who had a copy of Palmer's book could, if they chose to, look at the recipe and enter their comments. From your question I must assume you either don't own the book or didn't bother to read the recipe.

 

[Darwin18]

Yah. I read the recipe correctly. The reason I posted the message as I did is so those who had a copy of Palmer's book could, if they chose to, look at the recipe and enter their comments. From your question I must assume you either don't own the book or didn't bother to read the recipe.

Are you talking about the "Victory and Chaos IPA" from How to Brew by Palmer? It's hard to know what recipe you're talking about when you don't reference it directly or post a link to it. The "Victory and Chaos IPA" recipe does say 1 week primary and 3 weeks secondary:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter19-3.html

This one doesn't reference dry hopping but it's an old recipe. Dry hopping for three weeks isn't typical. I usually go for 5 - 7 days maximum unless you like the taste of grass, then go ahead for three weeks. I'd also say that unless you really have your pitching rates down that one week in primary is likely not enough for fermentation to be complete.

 

[Clef051]

I use to transfer all the time, but now it is just a waste of time. The only time that I transfer now is if I'm saving the yeast and I'm going to dry hop the beer

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

Just a thought - isn't the whole autolysis thing in beer something of a carryover from winemaking experience? I understand that in winemaking you are much more likely to hit alcohol tolerance limits and so when primary ends you have a lot of stressed and dead yeast. For the higher ABV% wines the habit is to get the wine off the lees ASAP.

Contrast that to beermaking where the yeast are often not up against their alcohol tolerance and are basically just going dormant after the fermentables run out. If beer trub was all dead yeast no one would bother washing it, right? Most of the time there is more living yeast coming out of the carboy than going in.

 

[Denny]

Just a thought - isn't the whole autolysis thing in beer something of a carryover from winemaking experience? I understand that in winemaking you are much more likely to hit alcohol tolerance limits and so when primary ends you have a lot of stressed and dead yeast. For the higher ABV% wines the habit is to get the wine off the lees ASAP.

Contrast that to beermaking where the yeast are often not up against their alcohol tolerance and are basically just going dormant after the fermentables run out. If beer trub was all dead yeast no one would bother washing it, right? Most of the time there is more living yeast coming out of the carboy than going in.

It's more related to commercial brewing. In the use of that tall, thin (relatively) fermenters that commercial breweries use, there is tremendous pressure on the yeast. With homebrewers using short, wide fermenters, that concern is reduced or eliminated.

 

[Thunder_Chicken]

How tall are these tanks? The articles I have read indicate that below 50 MPa there is no problem. 50 MPa is 493 atmospheres or about 16,000 ft or over 3 miles of water.

Hmmm...beer three miles tall....ahhhhh.....

 

[Puddlethumper]

Are you talking about the "Victory and Chaos IPA" from How to Brew by Palmer? It's hard to know what recipe you're talking about when you don't reference it directly or post a link to it. The "Victory and Chaos IPA" recipe does say 1 week primary and 3 weeks secondary:

You're right. I've posted this question in several locations with little response. Thought I did that here. Don't much like a**holes and I sure hate it when it turns out to be me.

 

[shotgunsteve]

Hey folks, I've read through most of this thread and haven't seen an answer to my question.

I'd like , but I'm concerned about sanitation. In my secondary carboy, I have an airlock and do not fear the beer getting infected. But my primary is just a large bucket with a lid... should I put this lid on tight?

Usually I leave the lid loose for the few days the beer is in the primary before transferring to the carboy.

To complicate, sometimes my batch bubbles over and leaves a huge mess, which must only increase the likelihood of a wild yeast or something taking hold...

 

[Homercidal]

Hey folks, I've read through most of this thread and haven't seen an answer to my question.

I'd like , but I'm concerned about sanitation. In my secondary carboy, I have an airlock and do not fear the beer getting infected. But my primary is just a large bucket with a lid... should I put this lid on tight?

Usually I leave the lid loose for the few days the beer is in the primary before transferring to the carboy.

To complicate, sometimes my batch bubbles over and leaves a huge mess, which must only increase the likelihood of a wild yeast or something taking hold...

First, it's ok to leave the lid loose to allow the Co2 to escape. But some people have been known to get fruit flies in their bucket because the gap was big enough to let them in. If you are not worried about fruit flies, then have at!

Second, if you are having blow off problems you need to investigate a "BLOW OFF TUBE" which would help solve the problem of a blow off making a mess. This device would require the lid to be tight so the gunk doesn't escape past the lid seal, but it doesn't have to be air tight.

The important thing to understand here is that bacteria and stuff like that aren't flying around under their own power looking for food. They are carried around on other things and by wind currents. The other things are like saliva, fingers, dust, grain, etc.

They can't fly UP into your fermenter!

So the air lock helps to keep Oxygen from oxidizing your beer, and as a secondary function can help keep bacteria from getting in there as well. But you don't need an airlock to keep bacteria out, you only need to keep stuff from FALLING INTO your fermenter. So a loose lid is ok.

In actuality, it's kind of hard for bacteria to contaminate a fermentor under normal conditions. Common practices such as sanitizing equipment (That could have collected bacteria from sitting around), your hands (picking up bacteria form your mouth, and from touching stuff that sat around), and of course not opening up your fermentor in places where there are a lot of bacteria such as near your grain, especially crushed grain which is floury, near furnace vents (Lots of air currents that can push bacteria into an opened fermentor).

In general it's safe and common to open a fermentor for short periods to rack or check gravity. The odds of getting enough bacteria into the fermentor to grow into a real infection is very small. After the fermentation is under way, there is enough alcohol to help prevent spoilage, and once it's done, there is a LOT less food for the bacteria to consume as well.

In summary my advice is to feel free to close the lid and use a blow off tube to prevent the gunk from making a mess.

You may wish to double check your fermentation temps. Blow off can happen at nearly any temperature, but I've noticed that since I got my temps down in the better range (low to mid 60s) I've gotten a lot less blow off (for normal gravity beers) and cleaner tasting beers.

 

[shotgunsteve]

Wow thanks Homercidal for the quick and detailed response!

I usually don't have blowoff problems, but for the first time added a few cups of malt extract in the primary to juice the finished product alc % - I'm guessing this may be why. the temp in the basement sits between 66-69.

Great advice, I'll invest in a blowoff tube with bung which can easily be replaced with an airlock.

 

[JustLooking]

... for the first time added a few cups of malt extract in the primary to juice the finished product alc % ...

 

[Homercidal]

Wow thanks Homercidal for the quick and detailed response!

I usually don't have blowoff problems, but for the first time added a few cups of malt extract in the primary to juice the finished product alc % - I'm guessing this may be why. the temp in the basement sits between 66-69.

Great advice, I'll invest in a blowoff tube with bung which can easily be replaced with an airlock.

Ok, but you did mix with water and boil a little bit before adding, right? You know, to sanitize it??

And 66-69 is not bad, but remember that you are measuring ambient air temp. The fermentation process can add 5 degrees or more when it's really going. It wouldn't be bad to use a swamp cooler with a few frozen soda bottles to keep it down in that range during the high tide of fermentation.

Then again, if you are happy with the results you get, no worries!

 

[shotgunsteve]

haha yes it was sanitized in boiling water before adding. should have clarified and thanks for checking.

I also was not clear on the temperature, I stated the temperature of the fermenting bucket 3 days in, not the basement. My bad.

Looking forward to seeing what the difference of skipping secondary with my own eyes!

 

[hbtasdfg]

The secondary myth is a way to increase sales of glass carboys in "everything you need" kits which have a lot of profit margin.

 

[JustLooking]

You wouldn't happen to be wearing a foil hat?

 

[cheddarhed3]

Wow, this is a great thread, especially for newbies like me. I have yet to venture into BIG beers and have a Chinook IPA in primary for about a week now as I write this. I'm gonna stay outta the secondary and add the 2 oz Chinook hops for dry hop in a sanitized muslim bag straight to the bucket. At this stage in my brewing "career" I'm all about reducing exposure times and experimentation. Thanks for all the good info guys. Cheers.