Cooling wort with lid on and DMS

[woozy]

So for various reasons I decided I just have to accept the fact that cooling gallons of wort from 212 to 80 is just going to take time and all efforts to speed it up are going to only save me minutes at best and put my into a panic and a frenzy and lead to slppy control and mistakes and cooling in such a panic is exactly what caused my last two batches in a row to have serious lacto infections. So no more rushing to beat the wort silly with a metal spoon that's only half sanitized and splashing as my stock pot is up to an inch from overflowing and precariously balanced while filled with frozen water bottles dipped in sanitizer while I have little to no faith that the sanitizer is actually going adhere to the plastic bottles which still have bits of plastic and tape around them while everything is in my way and cluttered and driving my ADHD through the roof that I just want to punch a hole in the wall.

So I'm going to prepare an ice bath, put the wort in, cover it with the stockpot lid (properly sanitized) and let it sit till in gets to 120 for however long it takes and then transfer it to my fermenter with lid closed and keep it in the ice bath until its cool enough to pitch the yeast.

Leaving it to cool in an ice bath with the lid on though... do I have to worry about DMS?

 

[diS]

I don't that is an issue.
DMS level will increase while chilling but increment is not that huge and CO2 will drive it off during fermentation.

 

[unionrdr]

I never get that,or at least in such minute amounts that I can't detect it. I put the lid on my kettle in the ice bath. the difference is,I fill the sink around the kettle with ice to the top of the sink,then top off with cold tap water. Chills a bit faster. Stay right there & as ice melts,add more ice. Stir wort occasionally. I chill mine to about 75F,then strain into fermenter. I have 2-3 gallons of spring water in the fridge at least a day before brew day. I use that to top off the fermenter to recipe volume. Usually gets the temp down to about 64F.

 

[woozy]

Thanks. It's good to know.

The extract batches I don't have much trouble with. It's all a matter of size. I toss in ice made with boiled water and top off with tap water.

But the all grains I have full volume in a pot just slightly too big to be wieldy. I toss in frozen bottles of water but and try to stir with my spoon but the pot is deep and my spoon short and the bottles just kind of block and get in the way of stirring. I dip the bottles in starsan but... well I think I left the labels on. And then I'm standing directly over the wort *breathing* and with god nows what on my skin follicles *directly* over the wort... And any rate it's enough to make me feel the whole thing is slightly out of my control. My last *two* batches had infections which must be some kind of record.

I figure I just need to calm down and accept that temperatures just don't drop from 212 to 80 in three minutes. Do what I *reasonably* can to get it down quickly but keep it from air exposure. I've actually read of people letting it take hours to cool in a covered fermentor or in the covered kettle.

 

[buzzno]

Do you have the means to purchase or make an immersion chiller or counterflow chiller? I made a counterflow and it cools my 5+ gallon batches down to 70 in about 12 minutes.

 

[unionrdr]

The problem likely is your putting frozen anything IN the wort. not in the sink surrounding the wort in the kettle.

 

[buzzno]

The problem likely is your putting frozen anything IN the wort. not in the sink surrounding the wort in the kettle.

I agree. I wouldn't put frozen anything in your wort especially frozen bottles with labels and adhesive.

 

[Echoloc8]

Do you have the means to purchase or make an immersion chiller or counterflow chiller? I made a counterflow and it cools my 5+ gallon batches down to 70 in about 12 minutes.

This, especially an immersion chiller at the beginner level. Takes all the pain out of chilling. You can stir with your spoon while it runs, or not. Just toss it into the boil pot about 15 min before the boil's done, and the heat sanitizes it for you.

Faster than ice-baths either way. :rockin:

-Rich

 

[woozy]

Do you have the means to purchase or make an immersion chiller or counterflow chiller? I made a counterflow and it cools my 5+ gallon batches down to 70 in about 12 minutes.

Eventually maybe. Still have to decide how seriously I'm taking this serial obsession. Next month I might just pick up a tube of oil paint, or a gardening trowel, and... it's happened before. Frequently.

Um, what's the principal of a counterflow cooler? How does it work? (Which one's the counterflow; the copper tubing to the tap? Seems to me that tap water isn't all that cold. 50 degrees at the coolest.)

I agree. I wouldn't put frozen anything in your wort especially frozen bottles with labels and adhesive.

I got the idea from someone on these boards and I figured as long as it was sanitized why not. It's just that... I'm not sure you can sanitize something frozen ... I mean it just doesn't *feel* right... I guess the microbes could be frozen onto the bottles and then the sanitizer doesn't kill them and then they just warm up anyway... or maybe that's bull****. I don't know. Leaving the labels on was probably just sloppy. Still I'm not sure I trust the frozen unlabled bottles for the future.

That said I don't see anything wrong with putting ice into the wort. The ice is the same water that I'd top off with anyway and the container I freeze it in has been steam sterilized (not just sanitized but sterilized).

 

[unionrdr]

I think it's better to keep ice,frozen bottles,etc in the bath & not the wort. Those bottles could be your source of infection. Just like wort chillers,they need to be sanitized somehow for use.

 

[DocScott]

I wouldnt disregard the possibility that the infection is coming from somewhere else in your process. Same thing on two subsequent batches makes me think your fermentor or tubing has something lurking.

I also have to congratulate you for writing the longest sentence I've read in a while! I'm not even mad, it's amazing.

 

[woozy]

I think it's better to keep ice,frozen bottles,etc in the bath & not the wort. Those bottles could be your source of infection. Just like wort chillers,they need to be sanitized somehow for use.

Oh, I'm convinced they are the source of my infection. I was dipping them in starsan but I don't think that was enough. the whole magulla just got messy and overwhelming quickly. Well, I get overwhelmed I get anxious and when I get anxious I start making mistakes.

 

[woozy]

I wouldnt disregard the possibility that the infection is coming from somewhere else in your process. Same thing on two subsequent batches makes me think your fermentor or tubing has something lurking.

Different fermentors. No tubing. Lots of sloppyness. Metal spoons with the the spoon and first few inches of stem sterilized by the boiling wort but handle not so much; clutter of funnels and strainer competing for space in pot of sanitizer with narrow opening and for room on plate which was sanitized twenty minutes earlier but in the flurry of activity and shuffling of items could have touched something and then my hands and fingers.. And worst offfenders, labels on plastic bottles. Basically, I need to *slow down and be careful* and to do so I think I'll need to let the pot sit covered for a few minutes here and there.

I also have to congratulate you for writing the longest sentence I've read in a while! I'm not even mad, it's amazing.

Molly Bloom's solliliquay is a couple hundred pages longer...

 

[unionrdr]

Don't sweat it,man. We're beeranators...the more we're around brewers,the more we learn...
!*! By the way,I found this site that has beer line cleaning brushes 66" long & 3/8" diameter. gotta get one for my blow off tubes,racking tubes,etc. Thought y'all might want it too! http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/cleaning/brushes/NHCB38.html

 

[goodgodilovebeer]

I agree. I wouldn't put frozen anything in your wort especially frozen bottles with labels and adhesive.

+1 !!!!

Chances are, this is where your sanitation issues stem from. You need a chiller of some sort almost as much as a bigger kettle. Cash investment is always a factor with a hobby, but IMO, the essentials are something that shouldn't be skimped on.

But as always, RDWHAHB

 

[woozy]

+1 !!!!

Chances are, this is where your sanitation issues stem from. You need a chiller of some sort almost as much as a bigger kettle. Cash investment is always a factor with a hobby, but IMO, the essentials are something that shouldn't be skimped on.

But as always, RDWHAHB

Actually the kettle's a great size for 2 gallon batches and about as large as the burners on my stove with allow. It's when loading it up with 8 pint size bottles and balancing it inside an ice bath and everything dangling in my face...

See, for me it's a matter of feeling that I'm in control. Once it gets precarious it's just too easy for everything to go to hell.

Chiller... I had An idea when I started this that I was going "keep it casual" (and !cheap!) and part of it was fun and doing things by the seat of my pants over obsessive control. I'm not entirely sure why I felt this way... I guess it was part of demystifying beer; if I could make a batch of beer in a martinelli's apple juice jug with saran wrap and a rubber band as an airlock then, even if it's not very good, then I've figured a secret out.

Well, it made sense three months ago... not sure it does any more. In fact I *know* it doesn't. Anyway... I'll probably get a chiller sooner or later. I guess I kind of want to taste batches three and four first to see where I stand. (Isolate and test the issues one at a time...)

Going to brew batch nine today (or is it 11? I didn't count my weird ginger beer concoctions and my first batch of amber ale was actually three). I'm going to try controlling temperatures (Ambient temp has risen from 70 to 74) and see where that takes me.

This is a *weird* hobby in that you can't really test the results of your experimenting until six weeks later and by that time you'll have done four or five blind experiments in the meantime.

 

[unionrdr]

Maybe try not flying blind so much?...

 

[woozy]

Don't sweat it,man. We're beeranators...the more we're around brewers,the more we learn...
!*! By the way,I found this site that has beer line cleaning brushes 66" long & 3/8" diameter. gotta get one for my blow off tubes,racking tubes,etc. Thought y'all might want it too! http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/cleaning/brushes/NHCB38.html

By the way, how do you clean your racking canes and your bottling wands?

 

[woozy]

Maybe try not flying blind so much?...

I meant blind as in the sense that I do experiment #4 with the desire to figure something out but then I do experiment #5, #6, #7 without knowing the results of #4 yet.

 

[unionrdr]

By the way, how do you clean your racking canes and your bottling wands?

I got a set of 3 aquarium lift tube brushes at pet smart for cleaning those. The link sells a 3/8" diameter one 66" long for cleaning those long pieces of tubing. They can get clear as new with some PBW & that long brush.

I meant blind as in the sense that I do experiment #4 with the desire to figure something out but then I do experiment #5, #6, #7 without knowing the results of #4 yet.

My point exactly. Stick to one at a time so you don't get overwrought with 3,4,5 at a time.

 

[woozy]

My point exactly. Stick to one at a time so you don't get overwrought with 3,4,5 at a time.

Well, gotta get a pipeline going...

 

[woozy]

Think my next sanitizer is going to be StarSan rather than IoStar. Apparently StarSan is better on contact.

 

[unionrdr]

It sure is! It actually works in like 15 seconds,but gov regs say you have to say it takes at least a minute. Just make absolutely sure it does it's job. Pipelines are great,but there is such a thing as over-taxing the system...

 

[Echoloc8]

Think my next sanitizer is going to be StarSan rather than IoStar. Apparently StarSan is better on contact.

This has been my experience. I used to use the powdered stuff, but since switching to Star San two years ago, I haven't had an infection yet, and my sanitary technique has changed hardly at all.

Some people say that a sanitizer is a sanitizer, but IMO Star San stands a cut above: works fast, no rinse, and degrades into yeast food. Very much worth the small extra cost.

-Rich

 

[tommyguner03]

all i do is clog my sink and put kettle in put cold water on and stir the wort.. usually takes about 20-30min to cool 5gallons down to 75F.. one day i will get a wort chiller .. and i have not had any issue on infections

 

[unionrdr]

This has been my experience. I used to use the powdered stuff, but since switching to Star San two years ago, I haven't had an infection yet, and my sanitary technique has changed hardly at all.

Some people say that a sanitizer is a sanitizer, but IMO Star San stands a cut above: works fast, no rinse, and degrades into yeast food. Very much worth the small extra cost.

-Rich

+1M! can't beat the stuff for verstility & reusableness. I still have the small jar of Cooper's sanitizer if anybody wants it for nostalgia's sake. In like new condition! :rockin:

 

[m3n00b]

I cool it with the lid off down to 160 then put the lid on. This way I don't worry about DMS or bugs.

 

[Bigelow92]

Never used anything but star San. I've only had one infected batch but that's cause I cooled it in the snow in my yard and some of that dirty Allston snow leaked in.

Never used anything but star San and I agree. Definitely the best stuff. Halfway through my big bottle after 12 batches and I use it on dishes, the floor, the fridge... Everything haha.

 

[Echoloc8]

Pro tip for beginning Star San'ers: buy an empty spray bottle from Walmart and fill it with some extra Star San solution after you finish your next brew day. Now you have a sanitizer gun!

Great, as said, for kitchen, bathroom or anywhere!

And once mixed the stuff lasts for months, so you can leave it around and it will still be effective at a moment's notice.

-Rich

 

[woozy]

Io-star is made by the same people who make StarSan. The only difference is StarScan is acid base and IoStar is Iodine base. Both are no-rinse and harmless. IoStar breaks down into Iodine and I think StarSan breaks into hydrogen. But I think StarSan is faster acting and better for spraying. So it's next on my agenda. I bout IoStar confusing the two and thinking I got StarSan. Leaving things for a minute doesn't sound like a big deal but when you are sanitizing stirrers and putting things down on counters, seconds can add up.

 

[woozy]

Did an extract batch and I think it went smoothly. But I did add ice. But let it sit in kettle until 120 and then into fermenter until 85. No splashing, no panic.

Will try allgrain tomorrow or the next day.

 

[Bigelow92]

Did you boil the water that you froze into ice? Did you cover it with Saran Wrap in the freezer? I dot want to incite panic but tap waters got all sorts of microbes, and your freezer prolly has a good amount floating around too.

Also, you should let it cool to 80 in the kettle then splash all hell out of it when racking to he fermenter. Over 80 F there's a chance of HSA (I know it could be a myth but I like to play it safe) and you gotta aerate the wort well to ensure enough dissolved O2 for your yeasties to build strong cell walls to withstand the osmotic pressure of an alcoholic environment.

 

[woozy]

Did you boil the water that you froze into ice? Did you cover it with Saran Wrap in the freezer? I dot want to incite panic but tap waters got all sorts of microbes, and your freezer prolly has a good amount floating around too.

Yes, boiled tap water, boiling water sterilizing the container and boiled steam cleaning the saran wrap.

Um, I'm topping off with tap water so I'm assuming that tap water *doesn't* have microbes.

Also, you should let it cool to 80 in the kettle then splash all hell out of it when racking to he fermenter. Over 80 F there's a chance of HSA (I know it could be a myth but I like to play it safe) and you gotta aerate the wort well to ensure enough dissolved O2 for your yeasties to build strong cell walls to withstand the osmotic pressure of an alcoholic environment.

I might not have aerated to the best. At about 80 I lifted the entire fermenter and shook it for one minute. I think I may have had problems with not aerating enough and relative high final gravities (1.012 vs 1.007 say) so it's something I'm going to work on, but for now my priorities is getting a sanitized work area for cooling. I just didn't really have it. Did better today. Will help in future to maybe pour back and forth between kettles and fermenters but I need to perfect sanitation before I can afford to worry about that.

One issue I didn't expect to have was temp control. I put it in a dish tub (unfortunately an inch too small) and put two ice bottles and about a gallon and a half of cold water. I had an adhesive tape thermometer that didn't work worth ****. So I ended up putting in a floating thermometer and I kept futzing and looking at it and basically mucking about 20 times too much. Without being able to actually moniter the actual temperature somehow the fermentor dropped into the mid-*fifties* which was too cold so I took it out of its water but ...I'm going to have to figure out some way to monitor the fermenter without opening closing it and dropping in thermometers every two minutes. *sigh*

 

[Bigelow92]

Ah the joy and pain of brewing. One of the reasons I love brewing is to get comfortable with what's out of your control. Life's always out of our control but you do what you can and get better everyday... How does that serenity prayer go again?

Sounds like you did ok. I don't usually pour back and forth just because it adds that extra chance of infection and like you said that truly is step number 1, watching your yeasties backs and keepin the riff raff out of your fermenter.

They say 15 ppm dissolved O2 is optimal aeration, but you can only get 8 ppm from shaking so you do have to shake the snot out of that thing. I don't do anything but shake up the fermenter real good, and the beers always been tasty thus far.