First Berliner Advice Needed

[OldStyler]

Hey everyone,

I’ve been perusing the forums for a bit now after having convinced myself that I was going to try a Berliner Weiss. I of course made this decision with little to no thought, and having gone through the forums for a while I feel like I have been looking through WebMD after finding a pimple… Anyway, I was hoping I could borrow some of the collective wisdom here in order to try and make this a decent beer.

• I usually do all grain batches, but I decided to return to extract for this one as I will try kettle-souring and just given my schedule it made a bit more sense to make the mash take all of 30 seconds as opposed to 1.5 hours. I picked up 3.15lbs of Wheat LME and 3.15lbs of Maris Otter (I know is should be Pilsner malt, but I really like MO) – I will probably only use 5lbs of the stuff into 5.75G of water to make an OG of approximately 1.036
• I would be using distilled water, just because I’m under the impression the LME will bring all the cool yeast-party nutrients it needs
• I’d give the mix a quick boil to give my Lacto a clean slate, cool it down to 110*F and pitch a 1L starter of Wyeast 5335. Would also add a little bit of Lactic Acid to get the pH down to the mid-4 range, as I’ve heard that starting point helps with head retention, but I’m not sure on how much acid I should be adding to 5.75G of the wort.
• From what I can tell, the 5335 gets something of a mixed reputation on these boards, but it happened to be the one the LHBS guy said would work…so I bought it…
• There also seems to be some mixed information on how to grow this starter – the game plan now was to cook up a 1L starter at about 1.030 and let that sit on top of the fridge for 5-7 days, no stir plate since the Lacto doesn’t want the oxygen, and a rubber stopper as opposed to the tried-and-true aluminum foil. Does that sound about right?
• I am torn between letting the wort & lacto simply sit in the kettle covered in saran wrap vs. racking to a keg for the duration of the souring. I’m unsure of how important it is to keep the mix above 80* - I’ve gotten mixed messages here as well. Some people have said I could let it free fall from the 110* and the souring might be a little slower but it would still work. Other folks seem pretty adamant that this mix should sit around 90*. I don’t have a very good plan on how to keep this mix warm – I don’t have any FermWraps or even heating pads or electric blankets. Does anyone have any experience with doing it like this?
• After the mix hits a pH of somewhere between 3.5-3.8 I would give it a quick 15 min boil to kill off the Lacto, chill, and rack to a fermenter. Would pitch 2 packs of S-04 and ferment out at 68*.

Does anyone have any experience doing it like this? Or even any clues as to where I might mess this one up?

As always, thanks in advance for all the help on this!

 

[mlafnitzegger]

I did 150F single infusion 60 min. Transferred to kettle. Brought wort up to boil. Cool to 110F pitch lacto starter. Secured lid on boil kettle with metal tape. I did not use any heat source. My end temp for souring was 82f as it was hot outside. I hit the wort with 5 mL lactic to bring ph down to 4.5 to discourage unwanted bacteria from invading the wort. This entire souring process took less than 48 hours in my outdoor brew cave right in my boil kettle with the lid on. Again, 78F-110F is fine for this particular strain of lacto.
When my ph was 3.20 and I began the boil.

 

[OldStyler]

Oh man, that doesn't sound bad at all! That's awesome, I appreciate it.

 

[TheAleRunner]

I've made 3 of these style the last couple months with good results, and it's really been easy. The first one, I used the Omego lacto blend. The second, Gigayeast lacto blend. And the last one, I was on a time crunch and the LHS was out of stock of all the lacto blends, so I ended up using Goodbelly probiotic drink. Of all 3, the Goodbelly version ended up my favorite. Go figure.

For each of them, I mashed with 50/50 2-row/wheat for 60 minutes, and added a pound of acid malt halfway through to pre-acidify the wort. Collected my wort in the brew kettle, chilled to 110, added the lacto blend/probiotic and sealed with saran wrap and the lid. All 3 sat in my brew room at 65-68 degrees. All ended up in the 3.0-3.1 pH range after 36-48 hours. Quick boil to kill any lacto then ferment as usual.

I'll probably continue to go the Goodbelly route since a quart only cost $4 and I only need to use half of that. That's cheaper than the $10 or so the blends are from the LHS, and it works just as well.

 

[Jeff_T]

I'll probably continue to go the Goodbelly route since a quart only cost $4 and I only need to use half of that. That's cheaper than the $10 or so the blends are from the LHS, and it works just as well.

How did you know you only needed to use half of it? I'm assuming this was a 5g-5.5g batch?

 

[TheAleRunner]

How did you know you only needed to use half of it? I'm assuming this was a 5g-5.5g batch?

Another buddy who told me about it. I initially asked him about using probiotic capsules, and he said skip that and use the juice. He's made a bunch of them that way. After my success with it, I can't argue.

 

[RPh_Guy]

• From what I can tell, the 5335 gets something of a mixed reputation on these boards, but it happened to be the one the LHBS guy said would work…so I bought it…
• There also seems to be some mixed information on how to grow this starter – the game plan now was to cook up a 1L starter at about 1.030 and let that sit on top of the fridge for 5-7 days, no stir plate since the Lacto doesn’t want the oxygen, and a rubber stopper as opposed to the tried-and-true aluminum foil. Does that sound about right?
• After the mix hits a pH of somewhere between 3.5-3.8 I would give it a quick 15 min boil to kill off the Lacto, chill, and rack to a fermenter. Would pitch 2 packs of S-04 and ferment out at 68*.

I recommend against 5335. If you use L. plantarum you can sour quickly at room temperature. Bite the bullet and get something that works

Your LAB starter needs to contain calcium carbonate for buffering. Link to guide.

3.6 should probably be the upper range for target pH. 3.4 or 3.5 would be better unless you really like sour beers. Personally I like around 3.2-3.3.

EDIT: souring temp depends entirely on the species of Lacto you are using. Probably why you are getting "mixed messages".

 

[OldStyler]

Thanks RPH Guy - when you say "use some L. plantarum" - I have some probiotic pills in the refrigerator right now that has L. plantarum as the first listed ingredient. That being said, there are a number of other strains of bacteria in the particular pill. Do those generally cause problems? I haven't seen any pills that are strictly L. plantarum, but obviously that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Thanks again!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I used a mixed probiotic capsule containing L. plantarum (and a bunch of other species) with great results.
To my knowledge no species that might be found in a probiotic would cause any issues.
Obviously open the capsules or crush the tablets as appropriate.

Cheers

P.S. There are L. plantarum pills (Swanson brand), liquid (Goodbelly brand), yogurt (Nancy's brand), and lab cultures (Omega has one), plus whatever mixed probiotics such as the one you have.
I've also heard of people using their own saliva, which contains Lactobacillus.... YMMV. Take that secret to your grave if you try it.

 

[OldStyler]

I saw something about the saliva trick! I don't think I'm quite that desperate just yet...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I saw something about the saliva trick! I don't think I'm quite that desperate just yet...

You could call it a house culture