On going off flavor issue

[-MG-]

This is a continuation of this thread I started:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/struggling-pentainedione-395469/

After doing more testing, I can conclude this is not a fermentation issue.

I have done a test batch with three different yeast strains (in brand new 2 gallon buckets), with appropriate pitching rates and 60 seconds of pure o2 from a diffusion stone.

Each test batch was just sampled and it had the same honey-like or caramel flavor as the body of the beer and a sweetness that people classify almost as buttery. But again, this flavor is not unpleasant, many of my friends really like it, but it is not as I intended it. This sounds just like pentaindione, which is a yeast bi-product. However, I tried using biomat dar which is inhibits the precursor of diacetyl and pentaindione from happening.

Any ale I make (mostly with light body) are dominated by this flavor. Even lagers have this similar off taste to some extent. In fact, I had a light lager that I forgot about because it had this flavor sitting in the fridge and out in the basement on and off for probably 8 months, this very beer now tastes amazing and has no sign of the off flavor.

So back to what we know:

We know its not a fermentation issue based on the temperature being in the mid 60s and holding constant, pitching enough yeast and getting proper o2 as well as testing three different yeast strains (US-05, WLP029, WLP090). Fermentation was conducted in brand new buckets that were given a good oxi soak and sanitized.

I also tried a lighter boil to see if kettle caramelization was an issue since I have a very vigorous boil, but the last batch still had this off flavor with a lighter boil.

With 10 minutes left I also circulate the boiling wort into pumps and the CFC so they are sanitized. A few batches ago I also gave it a good hot PBW soak and circulated it throughout the entire system of kettles and also used Acid 5 to give it an acid rinse. Again, anything in the BK should be safe anyways since it gets boiled.

The one final tid bit that has me thinking is this: When I started brewing extract 3 years ago, I recall this same taste and I have just now identified this. The only thing my extract days have in common with now was US-05 yeast, and the same city water, which by the way is excellent:

Ca - 20.5
Mg - 13.1
Na - 13.2
K - 0
Iron ~ 0
Bicarbonate - 85.9
Carbonate - .7
Sulfate - 21.1
Chloride - 33.4
Nitrate - .3
Nitrite - 0
Fluoride - .6

The water tastes great and to me is just as good as bottle water. However, at this point it's one of the only variables left to try to change. The only other suggestion was to try a different base malt. I currently use Briess 2-row.

Finally, I made a dry stout which came out great to me. However, it had black barley in it and it may be just 'hiding' this taste.

At this point the only thing I can think of is to try RO water and just see what the results are. I have gone to my LHBS store as well as talked to club members and we are somewhat stumped.

I have a hard time thinking its a bacteria infection since we have tried new fermenters and everything is getting cleaned and sanitized before touching the wort. If its not a fermentation issue, what's left?

 

[-MG-]

Just found an older water report:

http://www.cedar-rapids.org/residen...ts/2011 Cedar Rapids Water Quality Report.pdf

That states they have on average 3.2 PPM of Chlorine residue in the water. I typically have never experienced the medicinal or band-aid taste in my beers, but could this have anything to do with it?

 

[two_hearted]

I had the exact same type of off flavor in about 6 consecutive batches. The beer tasted fine out of the fermenter but developed this off flavor after I kegged/dry hopped. I swapped out to fermenting in sanke kegs, got new serving kegs (I like sankes) and shanks/faucets/bev lines. My latest beer tastes fine (dark mild). I have 2 pale ales that I just put in the kegerator so we'll see if the problem comes back.

I am fairly sure it was part of my kegging system. Maybe something in my lines/faucets.

 

[-MG-]

I get this off flavor before kegging. Right out of the primary fermenter it has it already.

Based on that, I can eliminate the kegging/keezer setup from the equation.

 

[wherestheyeast]

I think butter = diacetyl. You said you ferment at a constant temperature. Maybe next time try a diacetyl rest - increase you fermentation temp a couple of degrees after a few days of fermentation.

Just found this paper by White Labs regarding diacetyl:

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/Diacetyl_Time_Line.pdf

 

[unionrdr]

Here's a list of off by DRAFT magazine. Buttery flavor is most often diacetyl. http://draftmag.com/offflavors/

 

[-MG-]

I don't disagree with you guys in where you are thinking, because I spent a lot of time in that arena, but here is what I did to test fermentation:

I brewed a 6 gallon blonde ale

wort was chilled within 20 minutes in a whirlpool and left most of the hot break behind.

I bought (3) 2 gallon HDPE buckets from my LHBS with lids and new airlocks, everything was cleaned with oxi then sanitized.

The wort was transfered to each bucket, where it was aerated for 60 seconds with pure o2 and a diffusion stone.

I used three different yeast strains: Kolsch, Super San Diego, US-05

Each batch fermentation was in the mid 60s and occasionally rising during the day time.

I struggle that that is the issue based on we are talking about ales fermenting at the right temperatures. I have also tried krausening one of the blonde ales by pitching active yeast and that did not work to clean up the diacetyl. Further, I used biomat dar, which is a basically a means to prevent the precursor to diacetyl from happening and therefore no diacetyl. In the white labs article above, they even say for ale's a tempreature increase is not necessary.

It's possible buttery isn't the right word for it. I would say its a sweetness/slickness in the end that is smooth. Person in the brew club said buttery.

 

[The_Dog_42]

You could try Distilled water with brewing salts to eliminate the water. I have a hard time believing it's the water but that's all I can think of that is consistent.

 

[EyePeeA]

I don't think that 20 ppm calcium is enough for overall yeast health. Your yeast may be stressing so much that off flavors are occuring in abundance and never fully reabsorbed.

The reason your extract brews were better is because there are retained minerals in extract from the original maltster's brewing water, which boosted your start water's mineral content.

With all-grain, you don't have those retained minerals. So, I would say that this is a water issue that is leading to fermentation issues.

Just curious, but how many days are you going from grain to glass?

 

[unionrdr]

Diacetyl doesn't have to be buttery. It can also be oily or a slickness.

 

[-MG-]

I don't think that 20 ppm calcium is enough for overall yeast health. Your yeast may be stressing so much that off flavors are occuring in abundance and never fully reabsorbed.

The reason your extract brews were better is because there are retained minerals in extract from the original maltster's brewing water, which boosted your start water's mineral content.

With all-grain, you don't have those retained minerals. So, I would say that this is a water issue that is leading to fermentation issues.

Just curious, but how many days are you going from grain to glass?

I add calcium (gypsum) to get ca above 50. And to clarify I believe the extract batches had this same flavor.

and it varies by type. But these blonde ales I let sit on the yeast about two weeks. FG is reached typically in 7 days then I usually secondary with gelatin and then keg. My beers suffer from chill haze even though I have clear wort.

 

[TyTanium]

I've gotten that from Briess 2-row before, in both pale ales and porters. It was somewhat pleasant, but I can see it being annoying if it persists.

I'd highly recommend trying a different malster entirely. Sounds like everything else in your process is solid.

 

[-MG-]

I've gotten that from Briess 2-row before, in both pale ales and porters. It was somewhat pleasant, but I can see it being annoying if it persists.

I'd highly recommend trying a different malster entirely. Sounds like everything else in your process is solid.

This was my other choice besides the water. I haven't decided what I want to try first. RO water or different base malt. Or just boil the water to remove chlorine.

 

[TyTanium]

This was my other choice besides the water. I haven't decided what I want to try first. RO water or different base malt. Or just boil the water to remove chlorine.

I doubt it's chlorine, that gives a very different flavor IME. But you can use campden to instantly remove chlorine (1/2 tablet crushed per 10 gallons of water).

I would try the malt first. Your water looks awesome.

 

[unionrdr]

I add calcium (gypsum) to get ca above 50. And to clarify I believe the extract batches had this same flavor.

and it varies by type. But these blonde ales I let sit on the yeast about two weeks. FG is reached typically in 7 days then I usually secondary with gelatin and then keg. My beers suffer from chill haze even though I have clear wort.

I read on midwest that Breisse 2-row needs a protein rest for clarity. I wonder if that could contribute anything to off flavors? I switched from Briesse 2-row to Rahr 2-row,& I like the flavor more. But the fine crush for BIAB combined with taking longer than 20 minutes to get the wort down to 70-75F is likely contributing to the heavy chill haze I'm getting. I've now got a small jar of Five Star Super Moss to aid in getting more of the proteins to settle out. Hopefully this will solve at least most of the clarity issues. Gotta lower wort chill down times too.
Although I do top off with ice cold local spring water to get that 70-75F down to around 64F before pitching. My beers too are clear when the bottles are ready for fridge time. But as soon as they chill down,the haze takes 3 weeks to mostly clear. Not exceptable...

 

[-MG-]

Well I tried Weyerman as my base malt, and while fermentation is only 5 days into it. Our off flavor appears to be there.

On a side note, I left a previous batch in primary still, been around 14 days thus far, and when I tasted it, the taste seemed to be less than I recall. I typically hit FG and then wait a day or two then rack a light ale like this. Which on average was 10 days to rack to secondary or elsewhere.

I may leave this batch on the yeast for another week or two and see what things look like. It's really starting to clear in primary. Note this is the batch that received the biomat dar product which helps with beer maturation.

 

[TyTanium]

Interesting. I'm surprised. Please keep posting updates; I'm intrigued now.

 

[-MG-]

I was really hoping it was as simple as changing the grain.

The beer using the weyerman base malt still needs time fermenting so I'll see how things have changed. The sample I took was so early that the sweet taste was a mixture of not fully fermented beer yet, however I did pick up the notes of the taste I usually see.

Maybe this taste is a 'green beer' like taste? I know some people say that usually green beer taste is a little bitter, etc. I'm testing now with that beer that's going to stay on the yeast cake for at least 3 weeks and I have another one that I'm keg conditioning at room temperature to see how it 'blends the flavors'.

I may be reaching though in my analysis. But, I've got little left to go after.

I'm also contemplating sending the beer off somewhere for analysis so I can see where certain things are at like Diacetyl. Just not sure if this is something available to the homebrewer.

 

[-MG-]

Update:

The Weyerman batch has noticeably less of this taste. I can taste the little over 1 oz of hops (23 IBUs) in it this time rather than before I could not.

My senses are extremely sensitive to this taste so whenever I taste this beer I am always looking for it.

This batch I also used a campden tablet as I wasn't addressing the chloramines in my water appropriately before. Besides that, those were the only two differences in the batch.

I still plan on brewing this weekend with 100% RO water and depending on people's advice, may also try a different base malt again to see what the results are.

 

[unionrdr]

After reading some posts toward the end of this thread,it's starting to look like a normal by product of fermentation is being produced in sifficient quantities to be sensed. Also,racking the beer a day or two after FG is reached will complicate it. Give it 3 weeks in primary so the yeast has a chance to clean it up. I alsways give it 3-7 days after FG to clean up these fermentation by products. Imperfications in the process can cause any or all of these normally produced chemicals to be produced in large enough quantities to smell or taste them.

 

[-MG-]

After reading some posts toward the end of this thread,it's starting to look like a normal by product of fermentation is being produced in sifficient quantities to be sensed. Also,racking the beer a day or two after FG is reached will complicate it. Give it 3 weeks in primary so the yeast has a chance to clean it up. I alsways give it 3-7 days after FG to clean up these fermentation by products. Imperfications in the process can cause any or all of these normally produced chemicals to be produced in large enough quantities to smell or taste them.

I had a similar line of thinking as you, however, I have left a batch on the yeast cake now for 24 days and it is completely clear all the yeast had flocc'd out, yet our taste is still there. One of my friends mentioned maybe also trying a yeast nutrient to see if that helps at all. Again, I am pitching a good amount of yeast and always aiming for .75cells/ml/plato for an ale.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,if a sufficient amount of one or more by products is produced,the yeast may not be able to clean all of it up. Something in the water/something added is helping the water to react with the base malts somehow.

 

[-MG-]

Update:

The Weyerman batch certainly has a much more subdued taste. You can actually pick up the hops for the first time with this recipe in the aroma and small amount in the taste. The taste is somewhat there (to me), but then again I think I will have a sensitivity to this taste forever.

I just brewed last Friday the same recipe with RO water, and added some CaCl to bring up the calcium side of it. I also used a yeast nutrient as well to see how that helps (probably shouldn't have had two different controls in the same batch). The taste is a little more there, but the hops are able to stand out a little bit as well. This was using the same Bries 2-row base malt.

Fermentation blew off the airlock and I attached a blow off tube to it. Pitched the yeast last friday and yesterday I took a sample and was at 85.7% attenuation, it still can benefit being on the yeast as there was still some krausen.

At this point the only thing I can really pinpoint really is the grain. My brew club is about to get on a bulk order and I will be trying a different maltster than Briess.

 

[unionrdr]

Some grains like Breisse pale need a diecytl rest. Maybe that's it. Sounds like the yeast nutrient added to the off flavor.

 

[patthebrewer]

Yup....I had off flavors (chlorophenols to be exact)until I realized that my water authority was chloraminated our water (I called). I started useing potassium Metabisulfate, and the off flavors went away.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yup....I had off flavors (chlorophenols to be exact)until I realized that my water authority was chloraminated our water (I called). I started useing potassium Metabisulfate, and the off flavors went away.

The actual name is Potassium Metabisulfite

I'd say the safest advice to everyone is to add that "pinch" of Potassium Metabisulfite (or a quarter Campden tablet per 5 gallons) when one uses municipal water or when in doubt. This wisdom should be added to Brewing 101.
You can't taste that small amount and it prevents the dreaded Band-Aid taste, making the whole batch pretty hard to drink.

I'm quite sure all municipal drinking water is chlorinated one way or another. It keeps it more sanitary.

The seasons also make a big difference on the amount of chlorination. In the summer it is really strong here.

If you've ever been around a pool you know what chloramine smells like. It's that very pungent odor, not the sweet one from the Chlorine. It's also responsible for stinging and redness in your eyes when swimming.

 

[patthebrewer]

The actual name is Potassium Metabisulfite

I'd say the safest advice to everyone is to add that "pinch" of Potassium Metabisulfite (or a quarter Campden tablet per 5 gallons) when one uses municipal water or when in doubt. This wisdom should be added to Brewing 101.
You can't taste that small amount and it prevents the dreaded Band-Aid taste, making the whole batch pretty hard to drink.

I'm quite sure all municipal drinking water is chlorinated one way or another. It keeps it more sanitary.

The seasons also make a big difference on the amount of chlorination. In the summer it is really strong here.

If you've ever been around a pool you know what chloramine smells like. It's that very pungent odor, not the sweet one from the Chlorine. It's also responsible for stinging and redness in your eyes when swimming.

I just love some poeple arownd hear......you mispel won wird and there all awl ovver ya