Request: Feedback on First Saison Recipe

[Brulosopher]

I'm making a Saison for a club competition, never made one before. I'm taking the "simple is better" approach with this beer, though I'm open to any suggestions! I've heard 3711 will chew threw anything and doesn't require the warm ferment temps other Saison yeasts do. So my plan is to leave out all sugar/honey additions, using just grain, then pitch at 65F and let it get no warmer than 68F, at least for the first 3 days... main reason for this is I'll be fermenting it next to my Tiny Bottom Pale Ale. So here's what I've come up with:

DETAILS
5.5 Gallons
Est. OG: 1.049
Est. FG: 1.007
Est. ABV: 5.4%
Mash: 150F for 60 min

GRAIN
7.50 lbs Weyermann Pilsner Malt
1.75 lbs White Wheat Malt
1.00 lbs Munich Malt (10L)

HOPS
12 grams Magnum @ 60 (20 IBU)
14 grams Centennial @ 15 (4.4 IBU)
14 grams Nelson Sauvin @ flameout

YEAST
Wyeast 3711 French Saison

I'm stoked to get some feedback!

 

[beergolf]

Looks good. I do one that is very similar, in fact I just brewed it on Saturday. 7lb pils, 2 lb wheat, 1lb Munuch. I do add sugar because I like my Saisons very dry. Hopped with Nelson Sauvin. A simple recipe like that is great because you can change up the hops, or even the sugars. I sometimes do white sugar, sometimes turbinado, or even sometimes D-45.

You BU:GU ratio looks good.

Your ferment schedule is fine or you can even just pitch at 65 and let the yeast do what it wants.That is what I usually do with 3711. 3711 is a pretty amazing yeast that is not very temperature sensitive.

I have been on a Saison brewing kick lately getting ready for the summer.

 

[Brulosopher]

Looks good. I do one that is very similar, in fact I just brewed it on Saturday. 7lb pils, 2 lb wheat, 1lb Munuch. I do add sugar because I like my Saisons very dry. Hopped with Nelson Sauvin. A simple recipe like that is great because you can change up the hops, or even the sugars. I sometimes do white sugar, sometimes turbinado, or even sometimes D-45.

You BU:GU ratio looks good.

Your ferment schedule is fine or you can even just pitch at 65 and let the yeast do what it wants.That is what I usually do with 3711. 3711 is a pretty amazing yeast that is not very temperature sensitive.

I have been on a Saison brewing kick lately getting ready for the summer.

Awesome, thanks! I figured Centennial would add a nice subtle fruitiness while the Nelson will impart that great aroma. I'm stoked. I'd considered adding a pound of honey or sugar, but don't want the ABV too high.

 

[beergolf]

don't want the ABV too high.

It probably will be a little higher than the predicted ABV, only because 3711 will usually ferment lower than 1.007. Brew software always underestimates how low 3711 will go. Back when I was doing extract batches I even had several of those finish in the 1.004 range. All grain mashed low always finishes near 1.000 The good thing about 3711 is that even if it goes real low it still has great mouthfeel.

 

[bd2xu]

Subscribed. My first saison is still fermenting with 3724 after three weeks. My recipe is supposed to be a boulevard tank 7 clone and dry hopped with cascade. OG was around 1.070 so a bigger saison and mashed at 156 (meant to hit 152) so a bigger body. If I can't get 3724 down to 10 or so I may finish it off with 3711. I've read the combo of these two work well. 3724 sounds to have the most flavor and be the classic saison but you have to be very patient (like 4-6 weeks in the fermenter) and keep the temps 85+.

I checked mine at two weeks with steady but slow airlock activity and it was at 1.040 so still a long way to go. Smelled fantastic and started tasting good but of course very sweet.

 

[shoreman]

Looks good - this is personal preference but I'd go with noble hops if you can. The yeast should shine. I like:

Goldings
Saaz
etc.

 

[Urban]

I'll second the noble hop suggestion, I use hallertau in my saisons, and I like them dry so I would add some sugar and decrease the malt if you are worried about a high abv.

 

[Brulosopher]

It probably will be a little higher than the predicted ABV, only because 3711 will usually ferment lower than 1.007. Brew software always underestimates how low 3711 will go. Back when I was doing extract batches I even had several of those finish in the 1.004 range. All grain mashed low always finishes near 1.000 The good thing about 3711 is that even if it goes real low it still has great mouthfeel.

I'm glad you mentioned this, as I had been wondering just how low 3711 would take it. I'm curious what you (or anyone else) thinks about throwing in 4 to 8 oz of Rye Malt, maybe replacing some Pils? I thought this might add some more subtle character while also contributing to a more full body and mouthfeel. Also, perhaps a mash closer to 156F would be good?

Looks good - this is personal preference but I'd go with noble hops if you can. The yeast should shine. I like:

Goldings
Saaz
etc.

I'll second the noble hop suggestion, I use hallertau in my saisons, and I like them dry so I would add some sugar and decrease the malt if you are worried about a high abv.

My original design was all Goldings and Saaz, but after checking out a few clone recipes for some of my favorite US Saison (Bam Biere, Tank 7), I changed it up. I thought the Centennial would contribute to a more "mouth full of fruit juice" experience, while the NS seems like it would pair well with the Saison yeast. If this is a bad idea, I'm happy going back to my original hop schedule. Also, this isn't the actual comp beer (I just realized)... unless it's so good it should be... rather, I'll be building up a big starter, harvesting a couple pitches of this yeast for a friend and myself, then brewing this beer as more of a trial run with the yeast.

Thanks to you all for the great suggestions!

 

[timewasted]

I used 3711 exclusively for my saisons last summer. It will really dry the beer out. It was perfect for the style.

 

[Brulosopher]

I used 3711 exclusively for my saisons last summer. It will really dry the beer out. It was perfect for the style.

Would you recommend, then, a higher mash temp? Say maybe 156-158?

 

[FalconsBrew]

Very interested to see how this turns out, Considering making a K.I.S.S. Saison for this summer as well. Keep us posted.

 

[MNDan]

Would you recommend, then, a higher mash temp? Say maybe 156-158?

Yes - that will probably help - I think the ones I brewed last summer were mashed at 155 and they were dry, but not too dry. And I'd guess your final gravity will probably be around 1.003. Even the small saisons get big by the time they are done.

 

[Brulosopher]

Yes - that will probably help - I think the ones I brewed last summer were mashed at 155 and they were dry, but not too dry. And I'd guess your final gravity will probably be around 1.003. Even the small saisons get big by the time they are done.

Very well, I think I'll mash around 152 since I want it very dry, then pitch at 64F and keep it around 66F... I want phenolic over fruity. Thanks!

 

[Brulosopher]

Starter is churning. I changed the recipe a bit, based on suggestions:

8 lbs Pils
1.75 lbs Rye malt
1 lb Munich

Sam hop schedule... for now

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Maybe consider switching the order of Centennial and Nelson or splitting and combining them. Nelson gets catty from late additions.

I'd split and combine them to get some white grape flavor from Nelson and to reduce the catty aroma.

 

[Brulosopher]

Maybe consider switching the order of Centennial and Nelson or splitting and combining them. Nelson gets catty from late additions.

I'd split and combine them to get some white grape flavor from Nelson and to reduce the catty aroma.

I know exactly what you mean and totally appreciate the suggestion. I will absolutely split and combine-- actually, I'll got with 10 g NS and 4 g Cent first then 10 g Cent and 4 g NS later. Cheers!

 

[phuff7129]

Be sure to let us know how it turns out. I too am designing my first saison and I have gone back and forth a billion times on my hops. I finally decided to bitter with EKG's and finish with Saaz. I have heard so many great things about 3711 that I really want to keep the hops lighter to let the yeast shine through. I do want a firm bitterness though. Here is what I decided to do:

Saison
Saison
Type: All Grain Date: 4/2/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer:
Boil Size: 8.49 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Kettle and large mash tun
End of Boil Volume 6.24 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal Est Mash Efficiency 67.4 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 73.7 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.3 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.3 %
8.0 oz Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5 5.3 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 18.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 5.5 IBUs
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml] Yeast 8 -
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.3 %

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.047 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.047 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.003 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.003 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 24.4 IBUs Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 4.9 SRM

I am adding half the sugar with 15 minutes left in the boil and the 2 half as soon as fermentation starts to slow. I am going to mash at 149 for 75 minutes as Beersmith suggests. I am calculating 85-90% attenuation with this yeast. Like you I want to keep the beer somewhat small.

 

[Brulosopher]

Be sure to let us know how it turns out. I too am designing my first saison and I have gone back and forth a billion times on my hops. I finally decided to bitter with EKG's and finish with Saaz. I have heard so many great things about 3711 that I really want to keep the hops lighter to let the yeast shine through. I do want a firm bitterness though. Here is what I decided to do:

Saison
Saison
Type: All Grain Date: 4/2/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer:
Boil Size: 8.49 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Kettle and large mash tun
End of Boil Volume 6.24 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 68.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal Est Mash Efficiency 67.4 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients

Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 73.7 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.3 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.3 %
8.0 oz Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5 5.3 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 18.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 5.5 IBUs
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml] Yeast 8 -
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.3 %

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.047 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.047 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.003 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.003 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 24.4 IBUs Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 4.9 SRM

I am adding half the sugar with 15 minutes left in the boil and the 2 half as soon as fermentation starts to slow. I am going to mash at 149 for 75 minutes as Beersmith suggests. I am calculating 85-90% attenuation with this yeast. Like you I want to keep the beer somewhat small.

We are so in the same boat. To be honest, your post is making me want to go back to my original plan: bitter with EKG, late hop with Saaz... no joke. I'm pretty set on no sugar addition at this point. I'll certainly report back.

 

[phuff7129]

Like you I love American hops and I was originally thinking about bittering with Centennial and finishing with Cascade but I thought I would do it to style for the first time and go from there. Good luck with your brew.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

We are so in the same boat. To be honest, your post is making me want to go back to my original plan: bitter with EKG, late hop with Saaz... no joke. I'm pretty set on no sugar addition at this point. I'll certainly report back.

I've made a few Saisons with 3711 and American citrusy hops. The end result was a nice beer. I think your Centennial Nelson combo would make a tasty Saison. I don't know how well rye would go with the white grape from Nelson, but it tastes good with Centennial.

It all depends on what you want. Do you want an earthy/spicy Saison or a citrusy/fruity/spicy Saison? Both of them taste good to me.

 

[Brulosopher]

I've made a few Saisons with 3711 and American citrusy hops. The end result was a nice beer. I think your Centennial Nelson combo would make a tasty Saison. I don't know how well rye would go with the white grape from Nelson, but it tastes good with Centennial.

It all depends on what you want. Do you want an earthy/spicy Saison or a citrusy/fruity/spicy Saison? Both of them taste good to me.

At this point, I'm thinking the EKG/Saaz combo will go better with the rye malt.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

At this point, I'm thinking the EKG/Saaz combo will go better with the rye malt.

Oh no....you're playing it safe and conforming to parameters defined by a style which is so loosely defined that no one really cares if you conform to the style beyond using Saison yeast. This makes me sad.

Sometimes, brewing a new recipe is about taking calculated risks which have the potential to reap rewards beyond safe plays.

IF you go with the Euro hops, stick with the rye. IF you go with fruity hops, substitute rye for oats or just omit rye. Any of the above will make good Saisons, IMO.

 

[Brulosopher]

Oh no....you're playing it safe and conforming to parameters defined by a style which is so loosely defined that no one really cares if you conform to the style beyond using Saison yeast. This makes me sad.

Sometimes, brewing a new recipe is about taking calculated risks which have the potential to reap rewards beyond safe plays.

IF you go with the Euro hops, stick with the rye. IF you go with fruity hops, substitute rye for oats or just omit rye. Any of the above will make good Saisons, IMO.

I'm definitely sticking with the rye, so Euro hops it is. Cheers!

 

[signpost]

Sounds tasty all around.

I may have to brew up a Saison this summer, as I've never done one yet. I had an idea for a Super Saison recipe (not quite double/imperial). I'll have to compare it to what you have all mentioned in this thread and think about making some adjustments.

 

[Brulosopher]

Sounds tasty all around.

I may have to brew up a Saison this summer, as I've never done one yet. I had an idea for a Super Saison recipe (not quite double/imperial). I'll have to compare it to what you have all mentioned in this thread and think about making some adjustments.

Right on! Brew day went great, except my efficiency was better than expected-- hit 1.054 when I expected 1.049. Oh well . I ended going with about 22 grams EKG at 60, 14 grams Saaz at 15, and 14 grams Saaz at 5. Pitched 1 L starter at 65F. I'll report back as things progress!

 

[Brulosopher]

Fermenting happily at 65F currently. I plan to keep there for a couple days then let it free rise to whatever after that.

 

[humann_brewing]

Fermenting happily at 65F currently. I plan to keep there for a couple days then let it free rise to whatever after that.

looking forward to the results. Sounds fantastic too!

I am looking to do a citrus/fruit forward saison so it sounds like I will be going the pils/wheat/munich route with citrusy American hops.

 

[Brulosopher]

looking forward to the results. Sounds fantastic too!

I am looking to do a citrus/fruit forward saison so it sounds like I will be going the pils/wheat/munich route with citrusy American hops.

I can't wait to try it! I'll try my hand at a US hopped Saison soon...

 

[bd2xu]

I can't wait to try it! I'll try my hand at a US hopped Saison soon...

Will be dry hopping my Tank 7 clone with Amarillo soon, if it ever stops fermenting... Using 3724, one month in today, steady airlock activity the whole time. Started it in the mid 60, and rose it to 85-90 where it is now.

 

[humann_brewing]

so what hops would accentuate the citrus notes that 3711 kicks off? I was thinking Cascade of course but what are some of the others that would blend well? Amarillo, centennial, falconers etc...

 

[Brulosopher]

so what hops would accentuate the citrus notes that 3711 kicks off? I was thinking Cascade of course but what are some of the others that would blend well? Amarillo, centennial, falconers etc...

My next batch will be the same grist minus the rye, then I'll use Magnum, Centennial, and Nelson Sauvin.

 

[phuff7129]

My saison is done and I am really pleased with this beer. It absolutely is one of the best beers I have brewed to date.
It has a really nice malt with a lot of depth and the hops are absolutely perfect. It is dry and very quaffable. No off flavors at all and a rich golden color. Silky mouthfeel from the 3711. Just a great beer.
Here is what I brewed:
Saison des Lacs
Saison
Type: All Grain Date: 5/24/2013
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal Brewer:
Boil Size: 8.49 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Kettle and large mash tun
End of Boil Volume 6.24 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal Est Mash Efficiency 72.4 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.75 tsp Calcium Chloride (sparge addition) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 1 -
0.59 tsp Gypsum (sparge addition) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
0.30 tsp Calcium Chloride (mash addition) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 3 -
0.24 tsp Gypsum (mash addition) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 4 -
7 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 69.8 %
8.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 6 4.7 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 7 4.7 %
8.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 8 4.7 %
8.0 oz Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 9 4.7 %
12.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 10 7.0 %
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 11 4.7 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 12 17.9 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 13 -
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 14 9.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 15 5.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml] Yeast 16 -

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.004 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.002 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.2 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.0 %
Bitterness: 32.6 IBUs Calories: 154.5 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 5.1 SRM

I added 12oz of table sugar in the boil and the other 8oz I added on the third day of fermentation. It really did the trick to dry things out. I mashed at 150 for 60 minutes. I used 100% RO water and made the adjustments in the recipe. I carbed to 2.75 volumes. Next time I will up it to 3.